Felipe, I have a few questions and comments:

You said:
"Notice that Venus exalts Saturn. Here we read receptions as "power over". Meaning Saturn has power over Venus (by exaltation). Saturn being with the Sun determines to a significant degree the outcome of the situation for this highly expectative Venus. This translates as: 3rd person "rules" or "has power over" your plans and thus can help spoil those plans and spoil those positive feelings."

I would have considered it the opposite way: that Venus had power over Saturn since Saturn receives her and therefore has to tend to her so to speak. And Venus is in a more powerful position than Saturn in her own domicile and angular. I continue to learn new ways of seeing the relationships of the planets via reception from you- very interesting, but this is where I get confused- mixing Frawley with Lilly. I can't even begin to tell you how this keeps me going in circles. Even though I know it's not that hard...just can't wrap my head around it.

I was wondering if you could see Saturn as my husband possibly? I originally read Saturn as my husband and thought Saturn was the one with the power over Jupiter due to Saturn being in Jupiter's sign. And the fact that Saturn rejoices in the 12th house. Could it be that the Sun "illuminated" the messages for Saturn. The Sun brought what was going on to light, in the house of secrets?

If Saturn represents my husband then it would make perfect sense in that he does very much have power over me and originally did keep us apart.

----------------------------------------------------

"Neither can the Moon in the 8th change the situation, depicting weakness to act as well as emotional distress."

This explains the sense of loss I felt when I moved.

"Jupiter is in a neutral house, but being in its detriment it feels "defeated" or "resigned" in its unhappiness."

Definitely- I kept telling myself that I would always be a little broken and incomplete and to just get used to it.

"Also, Mercury being combust shows the Sun is the boss in his own psyche. That is, the Sun is with Saturn and there is nothing Mercury can do rationalize the situation and change it."

Could it be because of my husband?

[quote="moonbright"]Hi StarzQ:

Is it ok to PM you?

moonbright

[/quote]

Sure, feel free

Hi StarzQ,

StarzQ wrote:"Notice that Venus exalts Saturn. Here we read receptions as "power over"?.I would have considered it the opposite way: that Venus had power over Saturn since Saturn receives her and therefore has to tend to her so to speak.

Are you familiar with the term "dispositor"? The dispositor has "power over"; it rules what is beneath it. Therefore Jupiter has power over Saturn in this chart, in theory, because Saturn is in Saggittarius.

Disposition can occur by exaltation as well, or any dignidy for that matter. The higher the dignity the stronger the power.

Did not that woman have power over you? Was it not because of her, to some degree, that you were not able to get a favorable outcome?

I know there is a school of thought that thinks the way you are thinking. I cannot comment because I never used that approach. I recommend you take your pick of Frawley vs. "the rest of the world" :-) and run with one approach as they appear to me to be incompatible. Trying to use both will not go down well. All I can say is that the approach I use has been remarkably accurate, and this is not just some opinion I am repeating untested. I have hundreds of charts with known outcomes to demonstrate it. You can look at my web site for some examples.

StarzQ wrote:And Venus is in a more powerful position than Saturn in her own domicile and angular.

Accidental power yes. Essential dignity yes. But that power can be directed in any number of ways. Power of disposition refers specifically from one planet over another. Saturn influences the Sun because they are closely conjunct, that shows a measure of power as well. The Sun is the man, and whatever influences the man influences you. The testimonies must be read against the real life situation.

StarzQ wrote:I continue to learn new ways of seeing the relationships of the planets via reception from you- very interesting, but this is where I get confused- mixing Frawley with Lilly. I can't even begin to tell you how this keeps me going in circles. Even though I know it's not that hard...just can't wrap my head around it.

Choose one. I will happy to pull out from the discussion if your choice is "the rest of the world". No hurt feelings? :-). I do not wish to make anyone confused. Don't try to understand both approaches. Follow your intuition and what seems more logical and abandon the other. If one day you decide you want to explore the other from a place of solid knowledge them you may. But in the beginning it only hinders yor learning.

StarzQ wrote:I was wondering if you could see Saturn as my husband possibly?

Me? No. What would your husband be doing together with the Sun? The Sun is the co-significator of the man you asking about. The testimonies must be read against the real life situation. The chart is not abstract.

StarzQ wrote:I originally read Saturn as my husband and thought Saturn was the one with the power over Jupiter due to Saturn being in Jupiter's sign.

Saturn may well be your husband if the context is significantly different from what you told us. Be that as it may, that is the wrong way to read a dispositor. Period. Dispositor is the ruler of the sign. The dipositor "disposes of" whatever is in the sign it rules. Saturn is in Sagittarius so Jupiter disposes of Saturn, in theory.

If someone visits your house he does not become the master of your house just by being there. You remain your house's owner and master whether you are at home or not. Whoever is in your home is under your rule. Even if you went to visit your neighbor while someone came to visit you still own your house and therefore have the right to do whatever you want with your house and whoever is in it, in theory. A chart is a reflection of reality.

Saturn is visiting Jupiter's home (Sagittarius) while Jupiter is visiting Mercury's home; Jupiter has not ceased being the ruler of Sagittarius, and therefore still is the ruler or "dispositor" of whoever is in Saggittarius.

If somebody thinks otherwise then you will have to ask them to exaplain their logic and, if it makes sense to you, follow their astrology.

StarzQ wrote:And the fact that Saturn rejoices in the 12th house.

That gives Saturn some accidental power, that is all.

StarzQ wrote:Could it be that the Sun "illuminated" the messages for Saturn. The Sun brought what was going on to light, in the house of secrets?

It is the opposite. If you are near something that shines brightly you get blinded, you do not see better. Being combust is blinding. All you see, if anything, is the light that is shining. Again, the symbology is not abstract, but a reflection of reality.

StarzQ wrote:If Saturn represents my husband then it would make perfect sense in that he does very much have power over me and originally did keep us apart.

Yes, I aggree that makes sense. But being near the Sun does not make sense to me. The chart is not abstract. If you have a planet near a significator that planet's meaning has to be congruent with the reality of the situation. Your husband near the man is not congruent. Unless he was the lover of, or close friend, or in close contact with the man you were asking about.

StarzQ wrote:"Also, Mercury being combust shows the Sun is the boss in his own psyche. That is, the Sun is with Saturn and there is nothing Mercury can do rationalize the situation and change it." Could it be because of my husband?

The Sun and Mercury are significators of the same person. One part of the man's psyche dominates the other here.

StarzQ wrote: I would have considered it the opposite way: that Venus had power over Saturn since Saturn receives her and therefore has to tend to her so to speak. And Venus is in a more powerful position than Saturn in her own domicile and angular.

I realise this is directed to Felipe, and I agree with everything Felipe says here:

I recommend you take your pick of Frawley vs. "the rest of the world" :-) and run with one approach as they appear to me to be incompatible. Trying to use both will not go down well. All I can say is that the approach I use has been remarkably accurate

But just to expand on this point, rather than see receptions about "who has power over who" rather try to imagine reception as indicating a willingness or an openness toward cooperation or openness toward the planet that is being received by the planet which does the receiving. You can think of reception as describing the quality of the relationship between two planets - with reception of a planet, particularly the applied to planet receiving the applying planet, as ameliorating that relationship. Bonatti puts it in simpler terms by imagining squares with this sort of reception being more like trines without reception and so on. We shouldn't take this too literally but it does help indicate that reception can help improve the relationship between planets.

See more here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html

Felipe, Ahhh I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up. No I like your approach. There is logic in it- I think I'll stick with it.



"Did not that woman have power over you? Was it not because of her, to some degree, that you were not able to get a favorable outcome?"

Why, yes, I suppose she did in some way. But ultimately, I think the reason it didn't work out in my favor is due to the Moon in house 8. Obviously he left her and I was going to take my chances staying single until that happened with that Venus in domicile, but the Moon caused me too much grief.


"If you are near something that shines brightly you get blinded, you do not see better. Being combust is blinding. All you see, if anything, is the light that is shining. Again, the symbology is not abstract, but a reflection of reality."

Makes sense that way .


"If someone visits your house he does not become the master of your house just by being there. You remain your house's owner and master whether you are at home or not. Whoever is in your home is under your rule. Even if you went to visit your neighbor while someone came to visit you still own your house and therefore have the right to do whatever you want with your house and whoever is in it, in theory."

Makes the most sense. Especially when you are talking about a 3rd person in the horary and not the main significators. When the context fits, I can see how 'power over' can be useful.

Question about 'power over': if theoretically, and within context, Saturn has power over Venus due to Venus being in Saturn's exaltation, wouldn't Jupiter have even more power over Saturn due to Saturn being in Jupiter's domicile and domicile being the stronger of the two dignities?

If she had power over my plans- my physically (Venus representing the physical part of woman) moving my physical body across the country due to my confidence, I had power over her entire psyche? Power over her mans heart and desires since she is with the Sun- the mans desires? Hmmmm. It gets pretty juicy doesn't it?


Jupiter is in the fall of Venus- would this mean I was disappointed in myself? Jupiter is feeling bad about itself in detriment, looking at Venus like 'you fool'? Funny, I was thinking "you are making a mistake" the whole time. But it's like I had to do it- I had to make some kind of statement just to prove to myself I could do it.

Hi StarzQ,

Comments below:

StarzQ wrote:"Did not that woman have power over you? Was it not because of her, to some degree, that you were not able to get a favorable outcome?" Why, yes, I suppose she did in some way. But ultimately, I think the reason it didn't work out in my favor is due to the Moon in house 8. Obviously he left her and I was going to take my chances staying single until that happened with that Venus in domicile, but the Moon caused me too much grief.

Yes, the Moon is a major player here simply because it is your emotions. And the reason for the Moon's grief are several interconnected ones. The woman being one of them. Other causes are shown by detrimented and accidentally weak significators, etc. It is not either "this" or "that" which is the cause of the outcome; it is a combination of factors and the factors are different dimensions of the situation.

StarzQ wrote:"If you are near something that shines brightly you get blinded, you do not see better. Being combust is blinding." Makes sense that way.

It does not always apply to the context but that is one of the basic main interpretations of combustion.

StarzQ wrote:Question about 'power over': if theoretically, and within context, Saturn has power over Venus due to Venus being in Saturn's exaltation, wouldn't Jupiter have even more power over Saturn due to Saturn being in Jupiter's domicile and domicile being the stronger of the two dignities?

Yes, Jupiter has power ove Mercury, the Sun and Saturn here, in theory. But Jupiter is not in its domicile, it is in Mercury's domicile and thus detrimented. We do not move planets around signs to determine essential dignity. Essential dignity determines the "degree of wisdom" or "degree of self-worth" or "degree of confidence in self". Here Jupiter has none of that, so, in theory it has power over them but it does not know how to use it. So we do not read "powere over" in this case. It does not apply in practice.

The astrologer has to decide how to read receptions: as inclination towards or attraction, or power over. The context determines the correct way to use it, thus the importance of understanding context. Having said that, there are charts where it can be read both ways meaningfully. Think about it: if you love something or someone that thing or person automatically has power over you, of how you feel. This is real life.

StarzQ wrote:If she had power over my plans- my physically (Venus representing the physical part of woman) moving my physical body across the country due to my confidence, I had power over her entire psyche? Power over her mans heart and desires since she is with the Sun- the mans desires? Hmmmm. It gets pretty juicy doesn't it?

This issue of power of Satun over Venus is not major in this chart. It reinforces the case that she is with him and that affects you as a woman. We could easily interpret this chart without that point.

Yes Jupiter has power over both the Sun and Mercury and Saturn in theory, but being in its detriment shows it has no idea of what to do to exercise that power. If Jupiter were in Pisces and angular that would be a completely different story.

Here you are weak essentially which means, for lack of better term: helpless. From the 3rd person's side we do not need to read accidental dignity for her because the context dictates it. Again, this is real life: if your lover has a lover that is going to affect you and have power over your feelings and thoughts and possibly actions, regardless of what the chart says. But if the chart says it it can be taken as an emphasis and thus should be part of the message given to the querent, in my opinion.

Venus, is not only you physically, your body. Venus is the whole of your female psychology including your female physical urges. It is the "woman in you" and all that that encompasses. It is as psychological as it is physical. In this chart the psychological is more important and meaningful.

Thank you. I feel like I could keep asking you questions to the point of overdoing it, so I will close it out, unless you have any questions about context or want anymore feedback. I learned a lot from you with this chart, thank you so much.

You are welcome StarzQ.

I learned a few things too. Thank you.

All the best,