Background:

A good friend of mine asked whether a person in question will sabotage the potential relationship between herself and her love interest.

My friend's relative (sister) is a person who has expressed questionable actions to the querent's love interests in the past. For example, she would flirt with them in the querent's presence and do other things such as try to appear sexual with her body language in the querent's presence. At the moment the relative is married.

The querent has a serious liking for someone. Although querent and quesited are not dating, she is interested and pursuing, as is he, and for now they are only talking. The querent is worried because now she has to face the prospect that if she brings him anywhere around the relative, she might have to face her relative's disrespectful, provocative and boundary crossing behavior. To add insult to injury, although she likes the fellow for good reason, she also does not know him well enough to trust him. Perhaps if she gets to know him more, she will grow a trust for him. However, she is still insecure because she knows long term marriages frequently end over infidelity.

I drew a horary for her where she asks if anything will happen between them if she brings him around her. Inherent in her question, she explained, is her asking if the relative will attempt to cross the line and also if he would take the bait.

Querent is the Sun (L1), fellow is Saturn (L7), relative is Venus (L3).

What stands out immediately is that Venus makes no aspect to Saturn and vice versa, although, Venus is very clearly in Saturn's dignity.

The second thing that jumped out at me was Jupiter housed comfortably in the 3rd house. Jupiter not only has amazing reception with Saturn (Jupiter exalts Saturn), but Saturn is in Jupiter's dignity and they are applying. Jupiter rules the 5th house of sex and situated in the 3rd. How...suspicious. I do wonder if Jupiter is the husband of the relative, but in itself does not make sense within the context of this horary.

The querent is the Sun and makes absolutely no aspect to either Venus nor Saturn. However Saturn is in the Sun's triplicity which leads me to believe he does like my friend.

However I have to circle back to the traditional rules of horary. This horary shows no direct relationship between the Sun (querent), Venus (relative), and Saturn (quesited). And despite this, the Moon seems to be making a sextile to Jupiter in the 3rd and ruling the 5th from an operative place like the 1st.

There is reception but no aspect, which leads me to say no, nothing will happen, but even if the relative and the fellow like one another (Venus in Saturn's dignity and Saturn receives Venus), nothing will come of it. On this point, if someone can elaborate on who likes who or who would attempt (the questions were whether the relative will try and also whether he would take the bait), etc, that'd be great. I guess on this point it is possible he might also be the initiator.

Chart is below. All opinions welcome and thank you

Hi StellarTiggy,

Is the relative a cousin? If not, what type of relative?

Cousins are L3. But L3 here is Mercury, not Venus.

Saturn is not in the Sun's triplicity. This is a night chart.

Once we clarify what planet signifies the relative I can comment more.

Please see above. I use whole signs which is why I used Venus. I am happy to read your interpretation.

Ok. I believe that the chart is taylored to the astrologer, so if you use a different horary system then that is likely how the chart should be interpreted, using your technique.

But, in case my reading the chart may be of help here it goes.

Mercury is the sister. Saturn is in Mercury's detriment - with or without any aspects. So Saturn does not like the sister. That answers the question. She may want to try to sabotage since Mercury in its detriment matches pretty well the sister's previous known behavior, but she will not be successful due to the reception and the fact that Jupiter prohibits Mercury from reaching Saturn.

Is there potential for a relationship between them?

Mars is inside the 7th cusp: there is someone or something of significance in his life who/which has power of disposition over the Sun and Venus by exaltation so can cut the querent's prospects short. Saturn is in no dignity of the Sun or the Moon. Jupiter prohibits the Moon from trining Saturn. In any case, the Moon being in Saturn's detriment is not favorable as the Moon rejects Saturn. Yes, Venus likes Saturn. But the negative testimonies plus Saturn's indifference towards the querent tell me that there is no potential.

Thank you for your interpretation felipe.

If we take it a step further we can say Mars is frustrated also by Jupiter since the perfection with Jupiter likely happens first.

However, with Sun and Venus both being received by Mars this indicates they both like whatever Mars represents. A weak separating aspect from the Sun is indicated, and no aspect from Venus.

According to this horary the only possible contact with the quesited happens from Mercury since Mercury is fastest and currently in the quesited's sign. However, Mercury is also frustrated by Jupiter and Jupiter receives Mercury which may perfect the matter which Jupiter is manifesting.

On my end, since I use Venus for the relative I wonder who Mercury is. From the perspective that the relative is Mercury it also does not make sense that the relative would reach the quesited before the querent does since the chances of them meeting are highest via the querent.

As a final note I wonder if Mercury ruins the matter since Saturn is in its detriment.

You're welcome.

StellarTiggy wrote:However, with Sun and Venus both being received by Mars this indicates they both like whatever Mars represents.

That is one way to read receptions. There other way is: "power over".

Whatever Mars signifies, if the Sun and Venus "like" Mars, they like the wrong thing because Mars is in the Sun's detriment operating from the man's house. "Power over" is more likely, as in: power to spoil the Sun's plans about the man. And exercise that power Mars certainly will, given by its position.

To me, this reads like a competition chart with Mars in the 7th. Is it possible the sister is a competitor and therefore takes the 7th? If that were the case, the sister would take Saturn and Mars. As was mentioned, Mars has power over the Sun/Querent and the Sun doesn't like Mars- the Sun is in the detriment of Mars- Mars would be the competitive behavior. You might can give the guy the 5th house since he's just a romantic interest and they aren't in a relationship yet. If he gets the 5th that makes him Jupiter. Jupiter doesn't like Mars- it is in the detriment of Mars...he won't fall for it? The Moon meets Jupiter first so the Love interest- 5th ruler- stays with Querent. It prohibits the Jupiter/Saturn aspect.

I wonder if Mars is actually another woman he is seeing.

But despite the upcoming aspect Mars does not receive Saturn and is frustrated by Jupiter. I'm also seeing Mercury having separated from Mars and applying to Jupiter.

Going to take a wild leap here and say maybe Jupiter is a secondary sig for the querent (which would explain why it is in the 3rd). But that is a really random spin...

By the way please keep in mind Mars is masculine and likely symbolizes a male. I've drawn horaries that are just facepalm obvious and in many of them I would take Venus as a male 3rd party and don't you know it would always be a female.

I don't think this chart suggests he has strong romantic feelings for this woman nor the inclination at this time to start a committed relationship with her.

But putting aside the astrology for one second, it already starts off on the wrong foot if she is already jealous or insecure about this man being unfaithful to her with her sister, who is married. Not only does it show she doesn't think a whole lot of this man, which, if we believe the querent, he is implied as being someone so incapable of committing to her monogamously that she worries he may at any moment cheat on her in the future with her own sister. Contrary to what television may tell us, men are not so incapable of fidelity as all that so there has to be something about this man in particular which inspires such a lack of trust, or else the woman herself is acting in a paranoid manner.
If the potential relationship already has such obstacles ahead of it before anything actually happens, it's already a lot to overcome to have a committed and healthy relationship with one another.

But to the astrology. She is the Sun and he is Saturn and they do not make any immediate aspect. Mars in the 7th likewise suggests disappointment here and could also indicate he's interested in someone else anyway - is the querent sure he's single?

The Moon, from the first house, translates light from Mercury to Saturn and so it becomes crucial that we understand who Mercury is in this horary. In the chart given, Mercury would be the sister and this may make sense of the querent's apprehension about things. Mercury is applying to, Saturn and is in its detriment so has something of the feckless and trickster quality that Mercury can have and may well indicate someone who is willing to spice her life up with a little bit of flirting - but Jupiter ultimately comes between them and they aspect by sextile with mutual reception and so if Mercury really is the sister, which I'm inclined to believe, then I think playful flirting and teasing is probably as far as she's likely to go. For someone like Mercury in detriment, that kind of cat-and-mouse teasing and flirting is fun enough all by itself.

That said, you suggest a whole sign approach in which Venus is the sister and that leaves Mercury as being some financial concern or financially matter instead. Does this make sense to you of what you know of the situation?

In regards things like Saturn being in the triplicity of the Sun and so inferring that Saturn likes the Sun, or Felipe's comment that Saturn is in Mercury's detriment and so does not like Mercury etc. - I don't really follow that kind of approach to horary myself, and is really an approach that is unique to Frawley. We don't see disposition or reception in the traditional texts as implying a like/love relationship or indication of whether or not someone likes another person. Rather it's a relationship of obligation or of indicating how open or amenable a person is to another. With that in mind, I'm trying to understand both your comments on this. Are you using Frawley's understanding of reception here? It appears not but I just want to check so I can understand where you're both coming from more.

OK, folks-- help me out? I've been studying horary from a more traditional perspective, but as a modern astrologer, I tend to cut to the punch on the chart and focus in the broad-brush outlines. What am I missing or doing wrong?

The querent is the sun, secondarily the moon (her stake in the matter, but also in the first house.)

The sun is under the horizon, and in the 4th house-- but as near as dammit to the 5th house. A plain meaning might be (in modern astrology) that she is more interested in a casual love affair, at least at this juncture. The signifier of the quesited, Saturn, is in the 5th as well.

Alternatively, the man in question, Saturn, thinks of her as a friend (turned 11th from the 7th.)

(StellarTiggy, In what I understand about the 5th house, it doesn't rule sex per se: children, and amusements; casual love affairs falling into the amusement category.)

Mars in the 7th as serious relationship material seems like kind of a bust.

Assuming the 3rd is the correct house for the flirtatious relative (sister?) she's symbolized by Mercury, who is, indeed, making a move towards Mr. Saturn, the quesited. So does Sis's secondary signifier, Jupiter. But Mercury in detriment and Jupiter are going to get aced out by the querent (moon) who gets to him first. Probably after the querent has a nice chat with her sister. (Moon sextile Jupiter.)

Or would you see Jupiter as prohibiting the moon-Saturn trine?

Mars is headed towards perfecting a trine with Jupiter, but not till after a other relevent aspects perfect in the chart. It's a long way off.

The question is, will anything come of the relationship between querent and quesited, even with Sis forgoing her transparent sibling rivalry?

This is where I would find some better interpretation of the 5th house than I came up with (friends, or casual love affair that doesn't lead to a permanent commitment) would be helpful.

p. s. One interpretation of Saturn in or ruling the 7th is that the querent won't like the astrologer's answer.

I appreciate all of your responses. Just one note. The Moon translates from Mercury to Jupiter. Mercury also doesn't seem to like Saturn (Saturn in a night chart conjoining a planet in detriment). I am very excited to know who both Mars and Jupiter are though...

The only funny thing about this horary indicators the Sun is fastest significator here, next to the Moon who is showing the flow of events, quickly moves into Sagittarius and sextiles Mars overcoming it, then moves onto it's trine to Jupiter, overcomes that, conjoins Mercury for a place of more dignity than Mercury has, overcomes that and runs right into Saturn.

During this time Jupiter collects literally ALL light. I mean look at this horary. Jupiter is practically just sitting there going "NOT THROUGH ME!! " By the time the Sun finally reaches Saturn it will be smooth sailing.

I doubt that's how the horary should be read but it's hysterical!

StellarTiggy wrote:I appreciate all of your responses. Just one note. The Moon translates from Mercury to Jupiter. Mercury also doesn't seem to like Saturn (Saturn in a night chart conjoining a planet in detriment). I am very excited to know who both Mars and Jupiter are though...

Right, my post above was actually a little unclear so thanks for drawing attention to this. When I say the Moon is translating light from Mercury to Saturn and then later note that Jupiter however gets in the way, what I really mean to say is that on appearance Mercury applies to Saturn, with the Moon applying between them but that ultimately that apparent translation does not complete. I was trying to build a picture of where someone appears like they're setting out to do one thing, only for something or someone else to either directly intervene, or else that there was never really any intent to perfect anyway.