Barbara wrote:

Michael Sternbach wrote:Well, every sign and planet covers a wide range of possible manifestations, from the most problematic to highly sophisticated ones.

Of course, a Virgo can be slavish. As much as an Aries may be dictatorial, a Scorpio scheming, a Pisces addictive etc.

The OP's false assumption was that Virgo's expression in terms of character traits would be limited to servility, which is absurd, of course.

Among its other rather difficult manifestations, Virgo expresses itself in an overly critical yet biased attitude - which I think the OP is exemplifying perfectly. No offence...

I also thought that the OP' was trying to emphasize that we can get different impressions of astrology depending on whether we read Tropical or Sidereal interpretations, and that for a novice this could be damaging.

Anyway, I thought it was a bit harsh for Ms. Houlding to disable the OP's forum membership because she felt that he/she was insincere. As cited above, the Skyscript article about Virgo does actually mention picking up clutter, albeit in a very broad and balanced manner, and I thought the dismissal sent a message of control ("you'd better post what we like or we'll disablee you") rather than open, polite discussion as I have seen on other astrology forums.

I agree.Disabling membership smacks of insecurity

Well, I thought it was a bit harsh, too. The contributor is surely right that anything which we choose to believe can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and his remarks about the Virgo delineation on Skyscript were really just exaggerating, for a bit of rhetorical effect, what the text does say.

One thing I like about the Skyscript homepage is that it points you first at houses, planets and dignities, you have to root around in the articles section to find sign delineations. But when, as people will, you just go to "your sign", it really isn't clear whether this delineation is supposed to be if the Sun is there, or the ascendant, or perhaps the midheaven, the Moon or a stellium.

I find it fair enough that the contributor came away a bit irritated, especially if they'd just heard about sidereal, and weren't sure which zodiac (or both) all this was referring to.

Graham

I think I can understand Deb's reasoning and she only stopped his ability to post on a temporary basis.
Is someone wants to express their freedom to say anything they like there are plenty of places on the web to do so but how about those who do not want to listen to them. The word discriminate used to mean to distinguish between good and bad

I have spent most of my adult life working and have never asked to be a manager. If I go to an astrologer with a documented birth time and she tells me that I am a Virgo and Virgo's do not seek management jobs then the assertion is true

If she tells me that I am Schrodingers cat then then the assertion is false

If she tells me that I am earthy and mutable I tick the "dont know" box as I do not have a scooby wot she is on about

The only potential psychological problem with astrology I could face is depression caused the fact that my fellows do not understand what querent means and what it implies

Although I don?t agree with the argument of the original post (obviously written by someone who hasn?t deepen into astrology), I lately find myself concluding with the thread?s title. Astrology (especially its traditional branch) is fundamentally opposed to psychology/psychotherapy: Fatality Vs Free will.

What do you do when you:

1) love astrology
2) love psychology
3) have a seriously debilitated chart
4) (as a consequence of the #2) are miserable
5) are unwilling to enroll the ?new age? branch

Huh?

It?s a hard task to have to either accept the stars? unfairness or quit astrology?s fascinating mathematical interpretation of cosmos.

Apply set theory. It solves both problems. Range of manifestation is not absolute fatalism. Identity of the actor is everything when it comes to the will. Once you become one with everything, there is no outside force of determinism. Until you reach consciousness enough to handle all possibilities, some things will be done for you so that you don't hang yourself with your attempt at free choice (autonomic nervous system, etc)...

geo, my traditional chart looks like a heap of rough sledding. Oddly enough, my life basically turned out OK. (I'm a senior.)

Some of the traditional authors, from Ptolemy to Lilly, talked about the potential for mitigation. Ptolemy was a fatalist, but in comparing astrology to medicine, he noted that the physician does not merely diagnose the patient's condition, but also tells the patient how to get better.

Fatalism made a lot of sense to the stoic philosophers of ancient times, but you can do all kinds of traditional astrology without subscribing to astral determinism. When the Christians got hold of astrology, they came with the theological concept of "free will." This badly named concept indicates that within the parameters of your life and chart, you do have some choices to make, and that these choices affect future outcomes.

Are you familiar with the traditional concept of temperament? It isn't psychology but it does address personality types.

New here folks...there doesnt seem to be a thread for general newbies to introduce themselves ...so hope its the done thing to just jump in.

I had to laugh at the shorthand oversimplificaltion of the OP ...rather how i do things myself...how an analytical person would...boil it to condensed state.... but virgo boiled to servant or slavery is about a good enough summing up.

And what on earth is wrong with that anyway? So virgos came to serve and the newbies to the dimension and material planet would feel the weight a lot more than those who have learnt to carry the weight...so to speak....and mine the gold, process it and turn it to star dust. So yes.... its rough for the newbies being slaves. It teaches humility. It teaches detail and grounds you solid to this dimension to learn the necessary components.

Later when you get used to the weight, in a few more nnn lifetimes...it feels lighter and you wake up to a meaning of virgo that is based on the old darkness of slave but encorporating love, turns into its best expression of love in service. Or love of service. Love to serve.

But for now and to you...its slavery. Nothing wrong with it.

Then you move on to learn yet another lesson in balance....and you feel the weight of the darkness of libra i suppose.

Who knows how all that is set up.

Geo as a specific reply to you i would venture that a horrible chart is just a timeline of 'potential' set triggers that may produce events to permit you to be exposed to some difficult lessons you specified for yourself..so that you could learn how energy is directed and the results.

The chart is not you.

The chart is just a 'clock'. You arent supposed to wear the thing! Or to identify with it that closely!

You are far more competent and diverse than that.

But...freewill and all that.... if the will wishes it can, like an actor, play the role for a bit.

Seems you love that you hate it so until you hate that you love it...you are stuck with it.

Then...darn with it....enjoy!

Very wise, Autumn-- I'm glad you're here.