Hi there - this link seems quite apposite in this context.

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/

It is a very helpful summary of the strengths and weaknesses of different approaches to astrology.

Great astralwanderer and great work by Lehman.

Jens wrote:
But note that the 200 boxers at ADB don?t all have Mars in Aries sidereally many have it in late tropical Taurus...

Pankajdubey wrote:
Late tropical taurus = Caput Algol- losing the head would be appropriate but they get paid for it, so it must be money thing.

Actually, after checking I noted that the on-line ADB has 307 boxers. But there?s no convenient way to calculate all those charts in the sidereal zodiac, so I pulled up the 59 charts of boxers that are in the ADB 4 file on my computer. As it turns out, Pankaj may have a clue to Mars in the charts of athletes.

ADB data can?t be used for proof of astrological principles since the data is random rather than collected in any controlled way. (In contrast, the Gauquelin data can be used for valid research.) Also ADB almost always has errors in category files, so that a number of charts seem to be accidentally placed in a file that aren?t related to that file. Also, replication of results is always necessary to support any principle. But aside from these problems, ADB studies can still be viewed as interesting to astrologers.

Mars positions in the 59 sidereal charts for boxers presents patterns that don?t seem to be random. For example, there is only one Mars placement in Libra, and not a single Mars placement in Leo. (These anomalies could simply be chance as 59 is a small number for research.) The sign that has the most Mars placements is...Taurus with 11 placements!

So I looked into this further. Six of these 11 Mars positions fall within a short span from 8.9 to 11.8 of Taurus. This area happens to be in the Egyptian (sidereal) terms of Mercury, but more significantly, that area of the zodiac contains a cluster of six stars in Perseus (the hero who beheaded Medusa, Algol). This cluster is headed by alpha Perseus (Mirfak) at 8 degrees of Taurus.

I didn?t find any consistent pattern for the terms in other placements of Mars for boxers. Neither did I find a consistent pattern for the 27 Jyotish mansions, though an anomaly in 76 charts of tennis players had six out of the nine placements of Mars in Gemini in the lunar mansion of Jupiter. (Mars positions ranged between 20 and 28.7 degrees of Gemini.) This is the mansion of Punarvasu which contains the bright stars, Castor and Pollux, the athletically endowed Greek Dioscuri.

Then for Mars in Sagittarius for tennis players, five of the nine Mars positions fell in the terms of Jupiter. These terms from zero to 12 Sagittarius align with the first lunar mansion of Sagittarius (zero to 13 degrees 20 minutes). This part of the sky contains a great number of stars including the tail of the Scorpion and the bow and arrow of the constellation of Sagittarius. Again (as in the charts of boxers) for the 79 tennis players, only one Mars fell in sidereal Libra.

These anomalies suggest that stars may play a key role for the manifestation of planetary placements, and perhaps terms matter sometimes as well as the lunar mansions of Jyotish. The mansions (related to the ancient nakshatras) are identified by stars and asterisms within their borders. It might be an interesting exercise to look at the stars and asterisms within the various planetary terms (bounds) of the zodiac. Working with stars is easier in the sidereal zodiac as their degrees and minutes remain constant through the centuries.

For research, since there are 307 boxers in the ADB file, it would be possible to use those charts as replication by eliminating the 59 charts in ADB 4. If anyone would like the data for the ADB boxing and tennis files in order to calculate the tropical charts, I?d be happy to send it privately. Email eastwest9@snowcrest.net

Tom wrote:As an FYI, My understanding is that Gauquelin used the mundane positions of the planets and their relationship to the angles - not the tropical.

Yes, Gauquelin's results did relate to planets and their relationship to angles. But all the birth data is available so that the entire chart can be calculated in any zodiac. I noticed in the on-line ADB Boxers group that some Gauquelin data and birth charts were included.

A few more notes on what appears to be the non-random placement of Mars in the charts of boxers and tennis players:

The great boxer, Mohammad Ali, has Mars in the degree of Sheratan in the constellation of Aries.

Of Mars in the charts of the 11 boxers in sidereal Taurus, 10 of those are in the first 12 degrees conjunct stars in Perseus. The single remaining position of Mars at 29 degrees conjoins 5 stars of Orion in the same degree, including Alnilam and Meissa.

Seven of the eight positions of Mars in sidereal Scorpio for tennis players were in the first 12 degrees of the sign close to stars of Lupus, the Wolf or Hercules, the Strongman.

The closest zodiacal correlation I could find with Mars using the limited data of boxers and tennis players is the proximity to bright fixed stars. There was no consistent correlation with terms, lunar mansions, navamsas, dwads or even single degrees. Where positions of Mars happened to fall close together, often the range was from the middle of a degree to the middle of a degree several degrees further in the zodiac. (Tropical astrologers may want to check the degree position of stars and planets for a possible closer correlation.)

Likewise conjunctions to fixed stars related to proximity rather than sharing a single degree. A star might be at 45 minutes of a degree and conjoin a planet (Mars in this case) at 10 minutes of the following degree.

It seems that stars may have specific energies which may manifest as various talents in birth charts. We know that Ptolemy gave planetary correlations to the various stars in the sky. For example, Sheratan, the degree of Muhammad Ali?s Mars, was said to act like Mars and Saturn.

Yes, Gauquelin's results did relate to planets and their relationship to angles. But all the birth data is available so that the entire chart can be calculated in any zodiac.

Mundane position has nothing to do with any zodiac. And as you are aware, we stick to the tropical zodiac here.

Tom wrote:

Mundane position has nothing to do with any zodiac. And as you are aware, we stick to the tropical zodiac here.

Tom, why do you always seem to be wanting to start an argument with me?? Your reactions to some of my posts have been over the top. I'm discussing stars which are used in any zodiac. Skyscript isn't the place to be nasty to female posters. In the past Deb has said that discussions may include sidereal commentary. I have merely used that zodiac to locate stars. You are most welcome to place those same stars in the tropical zodiac. That is why I offered the ADB data files, which a fellow Skyscript member has already requested.

I rarely, if ever respond to your posts, - only when you try to get cute.

I'm discussing stars which are used in any zodiac.

Really? What's this:

Of Mars in the charts of the 11 boxers in sidereal Taurus, 10 of those are in the first 12 degrees conjunct stars in Perseus. The single remaining position of Mars at 29 degrees conjoins 5 stars of Orion in the same degree, including Alnilam and Meissa.
Seven of the eight positions of Mars in sidereal Scorpio for tennis players were in the first 12 degrees of the sign close to stars of Lupus, the Wolf or Hercules, the Strongman. ...

The references to the sidereal zodiac were, according to you, unnecessary as they apply to any zodiac. Yet you chose to make them. The purpose in sticking to one zodiac is to prevent the confusion of using different signs to represent the same place. We both know this as we've been over it before many times. Apparently you need to be reminded from time to time.

You are most welcome to place those same stars in the tropical zodiac

Thank you for your generosity.

It's obvious to me what you're doing. So I thought a gentle reminder was in order. Rather than simply deleting your post. That's still an option.

Two or three other posters on this topic mentioned the sidereal zodiac before I did. I have no idea how to place stars in the tropical zodiac, and my star list is of course sidereal. I didn't expect any correlation with Mars and the stars. That was a complete surprise.

I tried as much as possible to mention the constellations of the stars rather than the zodiac since the constellations aren't tropical or sidereal. They're simply star patterns in the sky. I've always been fascinated with the stars and constellations, and am going to try to replicate the small ADB groups for boxers and tennis players. I'd like to use the Gauquelin data. If I can manage a replication, I'll post the results on the sidereal part of Skyscript.