Sorry, why are you giving the 7th to the victims? And I take it that you are suggesting the radical 6th as the 12th from the 7th. Why are we turning the chart? Or have I missed something here?

I thought someone else did that. But upon reflection if they did that because the Ripper was given the ASC then my remark is confusing.

Since we don't know who the Ripper was (that was the purpose of the question), but we do know who the victims were, then we might find him as the 12th of the victims. That's all. I'm not sure this exercise has a definitive answer.

Deb writes:

Yet on the other hand we know that the western angle was used to signify enemies and hostilities in the more ancient sources that the classical astrologers relied upon.

I wasn't aware of that, but I'm still a little uncomfortable with much of this. I can see why the 7th would be enemies as it opposes the first. I can even see the Greek idea of "carrying away" that makes the 12th a logical candidate. I cannot see why we need both.

Furthermore, if the enemy is opposed to the ASC (sensible), why put the partner there? What is the common thread between partner and enemy? I know this is common practice and has been for centuries, it just never made sense to me. Neither does using the 7th for marriage. Marriage is the institution or status of the individual and that seems more like 10th house, and I see nothing wrong with separating the person (spouse) from the insitution (marriage). We do this with the 4th (parents) and 10th (mother).

Lilly spends more time with the 7th house than any other, and it is easy to see why; it is a very busy house.

Tom

Furthermore, if the enemy is opposed to the ASC (sensible), why put the partner there? What is the common thread between partner and enemy?

The partner and enemy both influence and, most importantly, limit the individual indicated by the 1st. The Ascendant is all about being the star of the show. The Descendant is the death of the individual. ?Two as one?, that sort of thing. In marriage you may no longer be able to drink beer and watch television in bed at 2:00am. In a business partnership you will often need to compromise.

An enemy is also an influence and limitation. Someone is preventing us from doing or having something we want. We walk around indifferent to most of the people around us, hardly even aware of them. But with an enemy we again have a bond with another person. Our individuality and ability to act with the single focus of self-interest is restricted; we surrender some of our self-focus to the other person in dealing with that person?s desires. That person becomes meaningful to us through their attempt to limit us. The Asc-Desc axis is a descriptive visual aid showing the polarity and unifying link.

To summarize my previous post: To have a partner or enemy is to be linked to another person.

A hidden enemy is half of that link. The other person has their intentions towards us, but through our lack of awareness of it we haven?t yet completed the link and completed the picture. Once we become aware of their intentions, our awareness completes the link and we have an open enemy, even if we don?t share their enmity and animosity.

Yet on the other hand we know that the western angle was used to signify enemies and hostilities in the more ancient sources that the classical astrologers relied upon.

In liver divination, which is older than horoscopic astrology, the western portion of the chart was always given to the enemies and the eastern portion to those doing the sacrifice. Of course, this doesn't prove that horary took the same course but it does prove a long tradition of using the west for the enemy. Unfortunately, it gets a little more complicated when we start comparing various cultures. The tradition of left or right changes between cultures. Some will see left as divine and right as evil and some will see it the other way around. However, what is clear is that they are at opposite ends. It makes no sense to me that you would have yourself in the 1st house and your enemy in the 12th. This is not showing opposition.

And I agree with Deb's comments on Dorotheus. I have been reading Carmen Astronomaie recently in light of Schmidt's comments and I do not see any real problem. I am no expert, of course, but I am used to comparing a number of translations of a single text. It soon becomes quite obvious when there are interpolations or somewhat questionable translations. I would think that those who have translated Dorotheus into other languages would have noticed. To my knowledge, Schmidt is the only person to question the authenticity of the 5th book.

I?ve been thinking more about the idea of giving the western portion of the chart to the enemy. There is definitely a precedent for giving the 12th house to enemies, as Tom pointed out. In a diagram shown in Fredrick Cramer?s book on Roman astrology, the 11th house is labelled amica while the 12th house is labelled inimici, which is unfriendly, hostile, etc. in Latin.

I have recently been doing some research on orientation for something else I am working on. It seems that the Greeks considered the right as lucky whereas the Romans considered the left as lucky. Apparently this had something to do with the differing theories as to the origin of the universe. But this left/right was all a matter of perspective. The primary perspective in divination was taken from north/south. The Greeks, when practising divination, always had the diviner face to the north. This meant that the east, giver of life, was on the right. The west, the left hand side, signified death. The Romans, however, faced south and so the east was on their left. Both groups considered the east to be ?lucky? but for the Greeks this was on the right and for the Romans this was on the left. No nation that faced to the south could consider right to be lucky as this was the abode of death. This becomes confusing when we look at terms such as dexter and sinister. In Latin, sinister simply means ?to the left.? Because the Romans considered the left to be lucky, the term sinister became connected with luck. For example, a bird seen in the left portion of the sky in Rome is an omen of good luck whereas a bird seen in the right portion of the sky in Greece was good luck. They were both in the eastern part of the sky but from different perspectives. However, in astrology today, dexter is considered to be more favourable than sinister. There is often the assumption that, in ancient symbolism, right was always lucky and left was always unlucky. However, it seems that this was not always the case. It depended entirely on which direction you were facing. I am not too sure how much this relates to the development of astrology and the use of the 7th house as the enemy but it makes sense to me that if all cultures saw the western direction as being unlucky then it is likely that this is how it developed in horoscopic astrology.