What really interests me about IsisTranspluto is its conjunction with Pluto at the beginning of Leo for several years from the late 1930's. I am sure this had a lot to do with the rise of Nazism and concentration camps, and left a long shadow after the war. This conjunction fell on Adolf Hitler's Midheaven, and squared his Sun.

so is transpluto one of wittes hypothetical planets, or something else??

how does eris and other planet type bodies that have been recently discovered factor into all this?

i know the westcott lady had made a huge study including a zillion asteroids and claimed they all had significance in reading charts...

i am curious to those using transpluto, why you would use transpluto, but not some of these other tangible bodies that have been discovered?

or is it that transpluto connects with something that has been discovered and it has another name for it?

fleur - thanks for your reply on the other thread.. i thought i would reply here in a way that stayed focused on my desire to gain more understanding of others inclusion of this hypothethical body....

for the record, i do not use the uranian hypothetical planets, although i have explored the use of them..

my sun is 1 degree conjunct eris, and i have a stronger interest in this body fwiw..

james_m wrote:so is transpluto one of wittes hypothetical planets, or something else??

how does eris and other planet type bodies that have been recently discovered factor into all this?

i know the westcott lady had made a huge study including a zillion asteroids and claimed they all had significance in reading charts...

i am curious to those using transpluto, why you would use transpluto, but not some of these other tangible bodies that have been discovered?

or is it that transpluto connects with something that has been discovered and it has another name for it?

fleur - thanks for your reply on the other thread.. i thought i would reply here in a way that stayed focused on my desire to gain more understanding of others inclusion of this hypothethical body....

for the record, i do not use the uranian hypothetical planets, although i have explored the use of them..

my sun is 1 degree conjunct eris, and i have a stronger interest in this body fwiw..

I see Sedna and Eris as satellites of IsisTranspluto, and I haven't found they do anything, but your experience might show otherwise. I see them in the same way as the Moons of Mars, Phobos and Demos, whose meaning is for me part of Mars anyway and I can't think of anyone trying to study them separately from Mars? Are there ephemerides for Phobos and Demos? Has anyone ever made a study of them? Would you study the Moons of Jupiter separately from Jupiter itself? Are there even ephemerides for them?

Similarly I see the asteroids as effectively satellites of Phaethon, so don't see them as having any meaningful separate information. There are thousands of them. Phaethon was the binary twin of our Sun, which broke up to form the asteroids. So, no I don't tend to like them or use them and find them annoying and cluttering in charts. People might turn up curiosities of synchronicity concerning them, but those are all around us anyway, I don't think they go anywhere. If somebody made a deep study of them I might be convinced in the same way I was by the Fixed Stars, but it hasn't happened yet, people seem to superimpose meanings on them that they haven't shown by enough observation and examples of charts and events. When I am looking at a chart it is so distracting to have the symbol of one of those things that looks a bit like a diamond headed Venus symbol, and I am scrambling around looking for Venus so I can quickly pick out its important aspects and where it is for transits and arcs.....I do use Phaethon, but not the asteroids....yes I know that is judgemental and I am happy to stick Ceres in a chart for a specific purpose if asked, to see what it does if anything (as I did in the chart of an abduction case at somebody's suggestion, and it didn't seem to show anything at all). I would be perfectly happy to give the asteroids a quick look if they were just listed separately underneath the planets in the box showing the aspects underneath a chart, but please not in the chart itself.

Astrology has lots of elements that definitely shouldn't be rejected, but I don't use them most of the time, such as the Black Moon Lilith. This happens to be automatic on an ephemeris I use, and on one occasion something definitely crossed a part of my chart and I had to look it up and couldn't find anything, except the Black Moon Lilith was transiting in exact conjunction to it.

I have never studied the Moons of Mars, Jupiter or any other planet and haven't heard of anyone doing so, but would be happy to have a look if there are ephemerides for them. If Phobos and Demos operate separately from Mars, that could be illuminating.....and I would have to re-think lots of things.

I just had a look on the Astrodienst website at their ephemerides, and can't find anything that calculates the ephemeris for the Moons of Mars or the Moons of Jupiter or any other planet's Moons other than our Earth's.

This is how I see the asteroids with reference to Phaethon. Or Sedna and Eris with reference to IsisTranspluto. In the latter case, the distances of these satellites are greater but they are also a lot further away from us. These things are just satellites; Moons effectively.

And if Ceres is so important, it should surely do something in the chart of an abduction? James, I know your criticism of this particular chart is that we don't know her birth time, so for all we know Ceres could be sitting on one of her chart angles.....but her natal Ceres doesn't aspect anything else in her chart and isn't being transited by anything on the date of her abduction....and yes, if we knew her time of birth, there could be a Solar Arc progression of a chart angle to her natal Ceres. Still, I have never seen an asteroid show its importance in any chart or event. If these things do anything, then Ceres as the biggest asteroid should be able to demonstrate this.

james_m wrote:so is transpluto one of wittes hypothetical planets, or something else??

how does eris and other planet type bodies that have been recently discovered factor into all this?

i know the westcott lady had made a huge study including a zillion asteroids and claimed they all had significance in reading charts...

i am curious to those using transpluto, why you would use transpluto, but not some of these other tangible bodies that have been discovered?

or is it that transpluto connects with something that has been discovered and it has another name for it?

fleur - thanks for your reply on the other thread.. i thought i would reply here in a way that stayed focused on my desire to gain more understanding of others inclusion of this hypothethical body....

for the record, i do not use the uranian hypothetical planets, although i have explored the use of them..

my sun is 1 degree conjunct eris, and i have a stronger interest in this body fwiw..

Hi James,

I too studied the Uranians at least in my own chart, and to my great surprise, they highlighted some of my major characteristics. They really "clicked".

However, Transpluto isn't one of them. I once compared Transpluto's ephemeris with the Uranians' ephemerides and didn't find any match. Nor did it match up with any prominent TNO.

Now many esotericists have stated that there are numerous bodies orbiting in the solar system that have their existence entirely on a subtle plane, yet they do have an influence in astrological terms. Well, how could we exclude this possibility? As astrologers, we are frequently factoring in things that aren't there in a physical sense.

So Transpluto might be an "etheric celestial body" after all.

My original motivation for studying it was that it seemed to offer an opportunity to get the extended rulership scheme (that is central to my take on astrology) closer to completion. But for that, I would expect it to be another tangible planet. But for all we know, assuming it to be is more than unfounded astronomically.

Yet it does seem to figure prominently in certain kinds of charts, especially in those of earthquakes. See my post on top of this page:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... c&start=15

That said, I no longer include Transpluto in standard chart analysis. Just like I don't normally look at asteroids, Chiron, or Lilith. Although I have seen all of those taking a major effect on a person or situation. But they belong to different layers than the planets, so to speak, and there are practical limits to the amount of information that I am ready to process when doing a chart.

Though Eris conjunct your Sun does seem to be rather significant, James.

Oops, double post.

fleur and michael,

thank you both.. and sorry for the delay in not responding.. my life got busier the past while and hasn't slowed down much especially the past few months.. i wish it would but i suppose a combo of astrological factors is contributing to this!

fleur, i think it might have been subninum on the other thread that said it best - astrology is an art, as opposed to hard science - or something like that.. what others use to articulate their perceptions on charts and life will be subjective and personal as i see it.. however, i can't wrap my head around such a huge emphasis on a hypothetical body, so we will have to agree to seeing astrology from a different angle here with regard to the use of isis/transpluto..

michael.. thanks man.. that was what i was curious about and you helped clarify this for me.. i too have looked into the uranian hypothetical planets and saw some relevance.. i still have alfred wittes book on planetary pictures and although i am not a uranian astrologer by a long shot, i was interested in it enough to study it to a degree.. now, i am mostly stuck on the main bodies that both traditional and modern astrology often rely on and see the merits on the lesser number of bodies, while continuing to be receptive to the significance of the outer planets, even eris, chiron and maybe some others.. i haven't studied ceres - i think fleur mentions this large asteroid - but then i haven't really studied eris either, even though it is conjunct my sun according to the software.. i remain receptive and accepting of a fair degree of ambiguity..

i really latched onto the relevance of the moons nodal axis in the past few years.. i can't believe how i missed the importance of this axis which at this point, i feel is very important to any chart analysis... so, to each there own i suppose, when it comes to what points, planets, bodies, hypotheticals and etc. etc. - they opt to work with.. michael - hope you are doing good and i miss our conversations from the past..

Michael you said :-

" Now many esotericists have stated that there are numerous bodies orbiting in the solar system that have their existence entirely on a subtle plane, yet they do have an influence in astrological terms. Well, how could we exclude this possibility? As astrologers, we are frequently factoring in things that aren't there in a physical sense. "

Yes I would totally agree with that. I haven't studied the Uranian "hypothetical" planets but I think I might now, after your experience.

My main experience with another "hypothetical" planet which certainly can't exist in our material dimension is with Vulcan. So often I see this in mundane astrology with earthquakes etc. In my own chart it is situated between a close Sun/Mars conj. Mars is Lord 6 and Vulcan has symbolised a veritable earthquake in my health (or lack of it !).

Yes James the nodal axis is worthy of much neglected study with me also.

I have also in recent weeks discovered the importance of planetary nodes. I hope to be able to post about that. Highly revealing and illuminating.

Very interesting thread. Isistranspluto has had a significant placement over the two World Wars moving through late Cancer which Rhetorius saw as the "gateway of the gods" and early Leo moving to the Beehive cluster (Praesepe). This area of the zodiac symbolises a kind of portal to another dimension. Many millions (more than at any other time in history) passed through this portal during the World Wars and this is what TP symbolised.

james_m wrote:fleur and michael,

thank you both.. and sorry for the delay in not responding.. my life got busier the past while and hasn't slowed down much especially the past few months.. i wish it would but i suppose a combo of astrological factors is contributing to this!

fleur, i think it might have been subninum on the other thread that said it best - astrology is an art, as opposed to hard science - or something like that.. what others use to articulate their perceptions on charts and life will be subjective and personal as i see it.. however, i can't wrap my head around such a huge emphasis on a hypothetical body, so we will have to agree to seeing astrology from a different angle here with regard to the use of isis/transpluto..

michael.. thanks man.. that was what i was curious about and you helped clarify this for me.. i too have looked into the uranian hypothetical planets and saw some relevance.. i still have alfred wittes book on planetary pictures and although i am not a uranian astrologer by a long shot, i was interested in it enough to study it to a degree.. now, i am mostly stuck on the main bodies that both traditional and modern astrology often rely on and see the merits on the lesser number of bodies, while continuing to be receptive to the significance of the outer planets, even eris, chiron and maybe some others.. i haven't studied ceres - i think fleur mentions this large asteroid - but then i haven't really studied eris either, even though it is conjunct my sun according to the software.. i remain receptive and accepting of a fair degree of ambiguity..

i really latched onto the relevance of the moons nodal axis in the past few years.. i can't believe how i missed the importance of this axis which at this point, i feel is very important to any chart analysis... so, to each there own i suppose, when it comes to what points, planets, bodies, hypotheticals and etc. etc. - they opt to work with.. michael - hope you are doing good and i miss our conversations from the past..

James, I am glad that the presentation of my views helped you clarify some of yours. And I am most certainly available for further conversations, both on and off the board!

Vicki wrote:Michael you said :-

" Now many esotericists have stated that there are numerous bodies orbiting in the solar system that have their existence entirely on a subtle plane, yet they do have an influence in astrological terms. Well, how could we exclude this possibility? As astrologers, we are frequently factoring in things that aren't there in a physical sense. "

Yes I would totally agree with that. I haven't studied the Uranian "hypothetical" planets but I think I might now, after your experience.

In that case, don't forget to share what you find!

My main experience with another "hypothetical" planet which certainly can't exist in our material dimension is with Vulcan. So often I see this in mundane astrology with earthquakes etc. In my own chart it is situated between a close Sun/Mars conj. Mars is Lord 6 and Vulcan has symbolised a veritable earthquake in my health (or lack of it !).

What ephemeris for Vulcan are you (or is your software) using?

I always found Vulcan fascinating. And while his existence as a planet can indeed be ruled out, it is noteworthy that some astronomers continue to search for one or more asteroids in the Sun's vicinity.

Yes James the nodal axis is worthy of much neglected study with me also.

I have also in recent weeks discovered the importance of planetary nodes. I hope to be able to post about that. Highly revealing and illuminating.

Based on my own limited experience with planetary nodes, I fully agree. Again, I am looking forward to reading your insights.

Very interesting thread. Isistranspluto has had a significant placement over the two World Wars moving through late Cancer which Rhetorius saw as the "gateway of the gods" and early Leo moving to the Beehive cluster (Praesepe). This area of the zodiac symbolises a kind of portal to another dimension. Many millions (more than at any other time in history) passed through this portal during the World Wars and this is what TP symbolised.

However, in that view, Cancer provided the gateway of incarnation, whence souls descended to Earth, whereas the gateway of excarnation was opposite to it in Capricorn.

Thank you Michael for your reply.

I looked at the Transneptunian "planets" and found Hades to be exactly conjoining my natal Mercury (Lord 8 in the 6th!). That gave me a bit of a jolt because it seemed very apposite. However I'm not sure I'll make a habit of using these. The chart can get too cluttered.

I use Janus software and that has Isistranspluto and Vulcan as well as the Trans neptunians.

I take your point about Cancer but I tend to regard the Cancer/Capricorn, 4/10 axis as a general pathway to another dimension. I'm not too fussed about ins and outs !
Just yesterday I found the 29th degree of Cancer described as the "Wedding of the Gods" in the Liber Hermetis which ties in with Rhetorius and his 29 Capricorn "Gateway to the Gods".

I hope to post about planetary nodes in due course. That wretched Mercury of mine does restrict me !

Hi there - Jean Cremer's freeware program now includes a function for working with Phaethon. If you would like to explore this interesting hypothetical body, you can download the software from Jean's site at www.jcremers.com.

Phaethon Ephemeris

I have been able to program an ephemeris and chart wheel function for Phaethon, the hypothetical body described by Eric Morse and Bernard Fitzwalter in Dark Stars. The script calculates a daily, monthly or annual Ephemeris for Phaethon, starting from the current date. This setting can be altered to the user's choice. Two charts can be calculated, a chart for the current day, or a natal chart from the main Planetdance window. The following screenshots show the functions.

Phaethon Ephemeris
Phaethon Wheel with Current Position of Phaethon
Phaethon Wheel with Natal Position of Phaethon
For further information on Planetdance, please see the main Skyscript thread.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9913

Many thanks for your interest. Ed