James_M wrote:

mark and amelia,

a few thoughts... as there are so many times available to choose from, i think one is walking down a briar patch with no clear way in it all.. it is another reason i favour ingress charts..

the problem with characterizing a country a particular way - this country has moon in scorpio as opposed to moon in sag - for instance - just doesn't cut it for me.. unless one knows the country and it's history in a deep way, i think one is skating on very thin ice with these ways of saying which chart is the more likely..

Tom over on the traditional forum would hug you for this! Ok maybe not a hug but certainly an appreciative pat on the shoulder. It is kind of ironic as I am supposed to be the trad and you are the one arguing for Aries ingress charts! Firstly, I do think Aries ingress charts are very useful. So no argument on that front.

However, it doesn't have to be an either or does it? We can have our cake and eat it.

Its also a bit of a myth that ingress chart delineation is monolithic. Aries ingress chart delineations are not all the same. As you know there arose various approaches to determining the Lord of the Year in the tradition which was a key factor in any ingress. But I agree at least we have one chart we can all agree on in an ingress.

Nevertheless, with all the competing times and dates why use a chart for a country timed to a key historical event? There is actually a deeper philosophical issue at stake here I have seldom discussed for fear of derision which is my view that mundane astrology is really divinatory like all other branches of astrology. Finding a chart for a country that seems to respond to transits, progressions, profections is part of the astrolgers' process to get inside a chart. Rather like adopting our own personal ''toolbox'' of techniques we work with. For example, I like fixed stars you use midpoints. As a lover of history another factor I find part of my 'process' is to study the history of a country in some depth. This hopefully, gets me into the zeitgeist of a key moment in time.

Sometimes, you can have a chart that has next to no historical support but just simply works! That is not to say we dont try. I think finding a date we can believe in is important to making the chart delineation work. I found this researching a national chart for Scotland. Maybe I stumbled on hidden astrological degrees a country relates recurrently to over time. Or maybe its just a chart that astrologer can resonate with psychologicaly. Its hard to explain. I probably, need to unpack this argument in an article one day!

Your point that national charts seem to fix a sense of national identify is true. Its why I have always argued countries do not have birth moments like nativities but numerous key moments in time they can resonate to. Actually, I dont support singular 'national charts' at all! Your kind repeating back to me a position I put forward here several years ago in an exhaustive, last man standing debate with Thomas Gazis on this thread. Thomas is an advocate of the opposing view which I dub 'The Highlander' school of thought in regards national charts. He argued that national charts are like nativities and there can only be one valid chart/time to work with. I strongly disagreed and still do!

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6847

In my opinion Bill Sheeran's article on national charts ' The Observer Observed' is the most philosophically profound piece ever written on national charts.

http://www.radical-astrology.com/articl ... index.html

Mark

I agree with James that getting the right Natal Chart for a Country is difficult.

As stated above Wikipedia does say clearly that DRK came into existence on the 9th Sept 1948.

And you'd feel that as a Totalitarian State that has to show up clearly. In fact the DRK is so unusual that the Natal Chart must be too.

I've gone for Midnight. Uranus Rising. Pisces Midheaven. Virgo Sun. Scorpio Moon. Algol on the 12th Cusp.

Saturn in Leo at 28?43' !!!! which generates two helpful indicators.

1/ Saturn in Leo does make for real mean Son's of Dogs.

2/ The Eclipse fell right on this point.

If you use Midday then Saturn falls in the 9th, and I'm beginning to get your drifts.

I know Eclipses are often used to rectify Charts so this has to be a classic. You just need to work with what has been coming out of the DRK around the Eclipse and now with the Mars transit. And even Mercury SD.

I'd say it is more of a 3rd House Communication - STAY AWAY from Us !! Leave Us Alone !!

Is there also something in the fact that the Ascendant changes sign very early in the DRK's life and I read that they invaded the South in 1950 ?

Uranus on the Ascendant isn't and easy thing to control.

An awful lot of information to be looked at and perhaps the progressed charts too.

Can we find information about when Kim Jung Ill took over a few years ago. That sort of thing should jump out of a progressed chart.

Good work Ye All. Getting interesting now. Just got to find where his Nuclear Arms Programme is hidden (in the chart).

H

PS How did Amelia's Mars transit go and how is the Mercury transit going ?

Rocko wrote:

I agree with James that getting the right Natal Chart for a Country is difficult.

Take a look at my reply to James which I think you missed. I suspect its not your style but at least its food for thought!

Mark

Bleeding Heck I tell you that the DRK is going to be Trump's Bete Noire. As it clearly is already.

He's got his Ascendant / Mars combo around 26?-29? Leo. And the Eclipse right in there around 28?50' Leo.

And till Oct 2018 Saturn and Uranus are going to be activating that area.

But Heh Trumpy don't you know that the DRK's Saturn is at 28?43' Leo ?

A classic Personality Clash.

Whatever rattles Trumpy's Combo wakes up the DRK's Saturn.

I've known a few people with Saturn in Leo and they all have been really nasty. Mean people.

And Huston we do have a problem as the Eclipse will be reactivated time and time again over the next 2 to 5 years.

And we are into mutual destruction aren't we ?? The US destroys the DRK's Saturn but that'd have to cost Trumpy big time too.

Some good News is that once Mercury has left the Eclipse Point the next Visitor is Venus around the week of the 17th Sept.

H

PS Which Natal House rules defences and weapons ?

Rocko wrote:

I've know a few people with Saturn in Leo and they all have been really nasty. Mean people.

Its true that placement doesn't have a good reputation with Saturn opposing its domicile and sign of joy in Aquarius. Quite a few dictators have this in their chart. But since Saturn spends over two years in each sign it seems very sweeping to write off everyone with that in their chart as mean or nasty.

Notwithstanding your anecdotal experience of Saturn in Leo you cant define a person by just their Saturn placement.

Mark

OK I've read thru your post on the Natal Charts.

Historically I'm pretty sceptical about Astrology. I think there is an awful lot that is complete "Tosh". And I try to stick to what I know.

For example Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are hugely powerful in Astrology and they ONLY "appeared" last Century. What came before ? A lot of mistakes ?

I think there will be ONLY one chart but finding it can be very hard. Perhaps with the DRK the Soviets were keen to get Home and so the DRK was born when they decreed.

That sort of thing can be clear. But you'd think The Stars would drive the birth time or the Country would prove to be a basket case.

All good stuff.

Good Old Eclipse right on my Ascendant ??

H

PS As to your point on Saturn. I've learnt to be wary of people with Saturn in Leo. Again that might be a Personality Clash at work. See Ya tomorrow.

Rocko wrote:

Good Old Eclipse right on my Ascendant ??

Wow. Interesting times eh? No wonder you have been so into the eclipse!

Mark

Rocko wrote:OK I've read thru your post on the Natal Charts.

Historically I'm pretty sceptical about Astrology. I think there is an awful lot that is complete "Tosh". And I try to stick to what I know.

For example Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are hugely powerful in Astrology and they ONLY "appeared" last Century. What came before ? A lot of mistakes ?

I think there will be ONLY one chart but finding it can be very hard. Perhaps with the DRK the Soviets were keen to get Home and so the DRK was born when they decreed.

That sort of thing can be clear. But you'd think The Stars would drive the birth time or the Country would prove to be a basket case.

All good stuff.

Good Old Eclipse right on my Ascendant ??

H

PS As to your point on Saturn. I've learnt to be wary of people with Saturn in Leo. Again that might be a Personality Clash at work. See Ya tomorrow.

Rocko:

I do share your frustrations re: which chart is best in mundane astrology. It's a real mess, actually but finding the correct time for the start of historical events ain't always easy. The reason is that political negotiations are a step by step process, even the breakup of the country (as the Scots will soon learn) is never a one shot, winner takes all, scenario.

I agree with your comments on Saturn in Leo (not the rest of your post).

I am also wary of people with Saturn in Leo. When the other person's natal Saturn is = your natal ascendant, those people are generally BAD NEWS.

For example, North Korean's national chart, their Saturn is = your ascendant, so North Koreans are bad news for you ! If you make predictions about NK, chances are, it may blow up in your face.

Another unfortunate synastric tie is one person's PLUTO conjunct your natal ascendant.

Regarding planets that came late to the party, (Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto) that does not nullify astrology or the fun of the party. However, I do subscribe to the theory that one should go home with the one who "brung ya" to the dance !

Regarding the threat of war between USA and NK. shouldn't the inauguration chart for Donald Trump's Presidency have smoking gun aspects for a future war. It has NONE that I can see ! The relocation chart for Donald Trump is more troubling, as the solar eclipse falls on Trumps relocated descendant (for NK).

However, his relocated Mars in Leo falls in the sober, chilling 6th house. That's like taking a hot coal and throwing it into a tub of ice cold water.

Mars rules war and the army, but Mars is chilled/restrained by the Virgoan nature of the 6th house.

What does that tell you ! I am not a mundane astrologer on the level with james and mark, but RLC Mars is actually on the hidden side of Trumps RLC descendant for NK. That implies a hidden or serreptitious war, or a Trojan horse type of war....

In the I Ching (or Book of Changes), it warns that when grass stalks are pulled out of the ground, other things are often intertwined. If the USA pulls the stalks out of NK, I wonder, will the dragon and the bear be intertwined, as well ?

That is the risk you Americans take if you bomb the "s" out of NK !

mark, thanks for your long comment at 7:03pm from monday.. i tend to see it much the same as you - there can be many important moments for a nation and they all somehow have reference to the national character..

i was thinking of neville langs chart for north korea and how i liked the look of it.. sept 9 1948 - 527pm - 14 aq 26 rising, and 2 sag 51 on the midheaven... moon is conjunct the m at 5 sag 16... i would be curious to know what work neville lang invested in coming into this chart, but i am afraid i can't find anything on it on the net. i did find a nice memorial to him here though for anyone who is interested in learning a bit more on neville lang.
https://www.vicastrology.net/in-memoriam-neville-lang/

rocko,

yes - saturn at 28 leo in north korea's national chart, if we go with any date in the vicinity of early sept 1948, as this placement and indeed it is right at the solar eclipse spot too. i tend to view a solar eclipse as more favourable to the planets in the area of the north node, then i do the south node..it would seem that north korea is flexing it's muscle here in a way that is different and more commanding... maybe others can correct me on this, but that is how i see it... in other words, i don't know that solar eclipses have to be all bad..

that is interesting in the case of your own chart too!

i am not sure where everything goes from here.. i guess we will have to wait and see.. that might be it for some time, or not...

Evening All,

Well I think where we, or I, go from here is to watch Mercury's transit to the Eclipse Point which is now applying till late on Thursday UK time.

I'm trying to work out what that'd bring. My first feeling would be little. So I'd dig deeper.

The first thing is we are at maximum tension from the Full Moon of the Eclipse. People say that we should be at the climax of what the Eclipse New Moon laid out.

Mercury is technically SD for ONLY a few hours NOT even till tomorrow morning in the UK.

People say that when a planet is ingressing after 27? that it becomes restless.

James coming back to your point about Eclipse NOT being all bad. I very much agree but they do bring sudden changes and surprises. Good point about the North Node. The Node in Leo is +VE but I understand that Saturn doesn't like the North Node at all. Also the Node was about 4? from the Eclipse Point.

I think all these things are important. But .....

It should have been noticed that shortly before the Eclipse, withing three days, I think on the Saturday 19th Aug the DRK shot that missile over Japan. My experience is that usually the Eclipse brings a sign within 10 days of the theme to watch out for. Others say 3 days before.

I think then that this Eclipse is all about North Korea's Nuclear missiles.

[see - the miracle on the Hudson occurred "shortly" before a very +VE Jupiter ruled Solar Eclipse].

Then as Mars transited the Eclipse Point on Sunday 3rd Sept they tested the A-Bomb. Nearly exactly as Mars made the transit.

We hear that South Korea is picking up signs that the DRK are preparing another rocket.

Could Mercury be the trigger for that ? Certainly Uncle Kim is hell bent on communicating to the World about his Rockets.

Don't forget that Uranus in Aries dominated the Solar Eclipse.

Well if Mercury is the trigger then Mercury crosses the Eclipse Point this Thursday evening around 10 pm UK.

Straight up I don't see how Mercury could deliver anything so meaningful.

Once the Full Moon is passed I expect things to calm down until Venus passes under the Nodes shadow on Friday the 15th Sept. That could be the moment the USA strikes.

I do intense ongoing analysis and really many things hang in the balance now till late Sept. Nothing is clearly shocking NOR clearly happy.

That's where I am ....

H

OK repeating myself a bit here but also trying to re focus on next week and the week after.

Several people like Arsmstrong and Skinner have warned that that 11th-12th Sept are generally a bad days.

That's the days around the UN Resolution to punish the DRK further.

Can that do anything other than generate further sabre rattling from Uncle Kim ?

I think we have to look carefully at Venus.

Firstly, Venus and The Node conjoin on Friday the 15th Sept. And secondly, Venus crosses the recent Eclipse Point late on 18th Sept Monday.

I see the first as a significant -VE where Venus disappears under The Node. However, many others say that it should be a +VE. we'll just have to wait and see.

And then Venus crossing the Node should be a +VE.

I can't see how a -VE UN Resolutions suddenly produces loads of love ins ??

Or should we be worried that the DRK's Saturn is around 28?43' Leo and we might get a temporary Harmony.

It'd suggest that a Female influence is whispering in his ear.

"Ooooh !! You are my Hero !! You've got such big (nuclear) guns !!"

Similar could be said for Trumpy as he has his Mars Ascendant combo 26?-30? Leo too.

Jupiter too is sending the Calvary. On station towards the end if the week of the 18th Sept.

This all looks mostly harmonious but how can that be after the UN Resolution ?

Clearly I am missing something very big.

H

Although NOT barely related to the Korean Crisis I heard that Putin is willing to expand the role of Peacekeepers in the Ukraine.

I didn't know there were any there already or even a plan for them.

I raise this because Venus is advancing on the Node, and then on the Eclipse Point.

Those points are close to the DRK's Saturn in Leo.

I think the first will bring lack of feel good, while the second will increase it.

Venus will also be trining Uranus.

Much must depend on the UN Resolution which must be close to being voted on.

Even that looks Dovish ..

H

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-calls ... 07801.html