Konrad wrote:
One of the most obvious configurations is Mars in harsh aspect with Mercury. Joseph Goebbels is a prime example. Though I will add that either Mercury or Mars have to rule something important in the chart such as Fortune, Spirit or the ASC otherwise everyone born with the aspect would be deceitful.

Martin wrote:
I see that Valens mentions lies (pseusmata) in his list of significations for Mars. I have certainly seen it in practice, such as when an undignified Mars is rising in a nativity.

Mark wrote:
I did a quick google check on the most famous frauds and liars.

I quickly came up with this chart which seems to nail so many signatures. And perhaps that is really the point. Finding several testimonies...
https//www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gerhartsreiter,_Christian

My analysis below is obviously based on the tropical zodiac but I will be interested in sidereal takes on this chart too.
(...)
7 Mercury on South Node
8 Mercury in applying trine to Mars
(...)
The themes of a debilitated Mercury and Mars are very prominent here. Mars is the night triplicity ruler of his sect light indicating that Mars in fall will be a major player in his later life.
(...)
I am seeing the Mercury-Mars connection in an awful lot of charts. Although not just square and opposition. The conjunction, trine and even the sextile.

If we add Ketu (Moon's south node) to a Mercury-Mars combination we are seeing a suggested signature for fraud and deception. I have just seen a televised biography of Bernie Madoff who operated the largest investor fraud ever committed by a single person, a massive Ponzi scheme. He also carried on secret extra marital affairs.

We do have a timed birth chart for Bernie as well as for Christian Gerhartsrseiter. Another very famous con artist is Frank Abagnale a check forger who masqueraded as at least eight different identities including an airline pilot, physician and lawyer. Frank?s story was made into an award winning movie, ?Catch Me If You Can,? and starred Leo Di Caprio. We don?t have a timed chart for Frank, but it would be interesting if Leo were prominent in his timed chart.

If we study these three birth charts together, certain patterns stand out if we use the overlap of navamsa (9th harmonic) planets, critical to the analysis of charts in India. I don?t think we can get a total grasp of the potential for deception without the overlapping navamsa planets. As always, I use the sidereal zodiac with the Krishnamurti ayanamsa.

In Christian?s chart Mercury is conjunct Ketu and the Sun at the top of the chart (nonagesimal, zenith point) and (as Mark pointed out) trine Mars. Sidereal Taurus rises in this chart, and ascendant lord Venus is with Ketu in the navamsa chart, both conjunct natal Sun and Mercury in the natal 10th sign. Navamsa planets act like conjunctions to natal planets if the orbs are fairly close. So we have this line-up in Christian?s chart in the 10th sign: Ketu-Venus (asc lord)-Sun-Mercury-Ketu trine Mars (7th and 12th lord).

Then if we take Bernie Madoff?s chart, he also has Ketu at the zenith point with Venus and Mars. Mercury comes into the equation as it crosses to this triple conjunction from the navamsa chart. Bernie has a double Mars-Mercury contact as navamsa Mars conjoins natal Mercury-Moon-Sun. Pluto, Rahu and the Sun from the navamsa cross to Neptune in the 2nd house (equal cusps at center of houses). In Bernie?s chart Mercury is lord of the 11th house of gain, and the 2nd house of financial resources. Bernie has Leo rising in both the tropical and sidereal zodiacs with Regulus on the ascendant. He has earned the title of ?King of Fraud.?

Both Christian and Bernie have a Mars-Moon-Sun conjunction, Christian in the navamsa chart in Sagittarius (8th natal house) and Bernie has navamsa Mars conjunct natal Moon and Sun in Aries in the 9th.

An interesting note about both these chart is that the Sun is strong in the sidereal zodiac, in Aries for Bernie in the 9th house and in the 10th house for Christian. To pull off massive deception and to be trusted and respected by others, one has to project a great deal of confidence and charm, and possess genuine ?chutzpah.? Valens gives wealth to Aries, and the old texts give confidence and authority to Aries and the Sun.
If we turn to Frank Abagnale?s untimed birth chart, he has a Mercury-Sun-Rahu (north node) conjuction in Aries, and from the navamsa Ketu crosses to this conjunction. Mars doesn?t aspect this conjunction, but navamsa Mercury crosses to Frank?s natal Mars-Saturn-Pluto. After his arrest, Frank went on to work with the government, helping the FBI and banks to track down fraud.

All three of these men were consummate actors, helped along by a dare devil personal self confidence. The Gauquelins isolated Jupiter as the planet of actors. Frank has the natal Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Sagittarius. Bernie has Jupiter on the descendant squaring Ketu-Venus-Mars at the zenith. Christian?s navamsa Jupiter crosses to the natal MC.

From the sidereal point of view, rather than emphasizing planets in weak signs, the picture is that planets strongly placed allowed others to trust these men as they projected charm and confidence. In Jyotish Ketu can be the great deceiver, placing a veil of illusion over the truth, much like Neptune is believed to do in western astrology.

Bernie Madoff will go down in history as one of the greatest con artists of all time. He operated his Ponzi scheme for decades. His sidereal sign positions are interesting as they are so positive:

Sun is exalted in natal Aries and in its own sign Leo in the navamsa chart.
Mars is in its own sign of Aries in the navamsa chart.
Venus (10th lord) which is in partile square to the ascendant is in its own sign (Taurus) and triplicity.

So rather than making a moral judgement these positions allowed Bernie Madoff to have a very successful (but fraudulent) life and career for decades. Without Ketu we wouldn't be able to see the possibility of deception and fraud. It's interesting that from the navamsa Ketu conjoins natal Jupiter on the descendant (partnerships and exchanges with others), Jupiter being the planet of truth and morality.

Pankajdubey wrote:

A lot of physicist and engineers will have this combination- someone closer
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ha ... John_Scott

I think it is the ones that have exalted planets rise in station and get visible , good or bad.
BTW many Nobel laureates do have the Mercury -Mars inconjunct - even the Physicists.

For contrast to the three criminal charts above, here is the chart of John Scott Haldane referenced by Pankaj. (Scottish writer, scientist, philosopher and physiologist.)
Again we have an exalted Sun at the top of the chart which receives the trine of Mars in Sagittarius, but also the square of Saturn above the ascendant. Mercury does receive the square of Mars from Sagittarius, but Mars itself receives the partile opposition of Jupiter which no doubt places Mars on the high road.

From the navamsa Mercury stands alone in its own triplicity on the natal 7th cusp. There is no contact of Ketu with either Mercury or Mars in natal or navamsa charts. So the exalted Sun trine Mars can indicate a successful career without the duplicity of Ketu.

Although Mark invited sidereal comments, I just realized that this is the Traditional forum. If Tom is still in charge, he may delete all my posts. If so (Tom), please give me the opportunity to move my posts to the sidereal forum. Thank you.

In A History of Horoscopic Astrology (pp. 12-13) James Holden mentions that the early decans were subdivided into thirds of 3?20' which could quite possibly be the origin of the Hindu navamsas. I know I've seen 'the ninths' mentioned in early western texts, but don't have time to check for references. Holden notes that the 3?20' subdivisions were called in Greek leitourgoi 'ministers' and in Latin munifices 'duty-officers.' So the ninths aren't a foreign entry into traditional astrology although we lack examples of how they might have been used. The term navamsa however is Indian.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Although Mark invited sidereal comments, I just realized that this is the Traditional forum. If Tom is still in charge, he may delete all my posts.

I dont moderate on this forum and its ultimately not my call what stays up here or gets removed. Tom remains the moderator here so he is at liberty to make his own judgement on the presence of sidereal charts here. I had hoped to let a few sidereal comments in looking at Christian Gerhartsrseiter chart effectively under the radar. Thats kind of how the mundane forum goes where all analysis is welcome. But I accept the traditional forum is a very different astrological context. Your numerous posts using sidereal charts do seem in direct conflict with the forum line Tom has repeated several times here.

Thank you for the chart data on Frank Abagnale. That was new to me.

For me personally the really awkward thing about your posts is not the siderealism but the Jyotish content. Does Jyotish come within the bounds of traditional astrology? I had always thought that there was a kind of consensus here that by 'traditional and ancient' we meant for want of a better word the western tradition with incorporates the astrology of West Asia and Europe as opposed to the eastern tradition found in India? So I assumed this forum existed to discuss hellenistic, Perso-Arabic and European astrological tradition. We do after all have a forum dedicated to Indian astrology. And there are countless others all over the internet. I fear allowing this forum to include Jyotish techniques will dilute the focus here. This is not to deny the fact that Perso-Arabic astrology had an influence on Indian astrology in Tajika. So there is a clear overlap in that area.

Mark

Thanks for your reply, Mark. Actually the technique I used (the overlapping of 9th harmonic planets to natal planets) isn't how the navamsa is traditionally used in India. I discovered this application of the 9th harmonic through years of study and experimentation. So the only real reference to Jyotish is the word 'navamsa' and also the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. Oh, and 'Ketu' which is much easier to type than 'Moon's south node.'

Recently I've noted however, that this technique has appeared here and there in contemporary Indian sources. Who is to say that this technique might not be applicable to Traditional Astrology since the 9ths have been known since earliest horoscopic astrology?

I wouldn't have posted here if I'd noticed that this was the Traditional forum. I've moved my posts to the sidereal forum, so Tom is at liberty to delete my posts. Here is the link to the Lies and Deception topic on that forum: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9779

I've continued this topic on the sidereal forum where the chart of Jonathan Aitken has been added to the discussion. His birth chart conforms to the fraud pattern of the other three charts.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9779

EDIT 8 SEPTEMBER 2017: Notes on additional planetary patterns in the four charts have been posted on the link above.

Hi:

James. M wrote:

i would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example..

I have Saturn in 8 (Pisces) and am not prone to lying/decepetion (so says me, anyway ).

Bernie Madoff's Saturn is unaspected and in its fall. (tropical)


Cheers.

hi moonbright!

i am sorry i missed your post, but i will just emphasize what i believe mark said further up the thread.. no one factor is going to cover anything.. there would have to be more then just one factor like saturn in 8th for example... and yes - bernie madoff has saturn in aries - solar 12th to his taurus planets too, which is only further confirmation for me of a set that includes a number of astro signatures that mark already identified... i think mars in gemini is another one that could be added to the list, but again - nothing in isolation..

on another note - i saw the exhaustive post you made on the eclipse for the usa and hurricane irma.. you put a lot of work into that, but i didn't comment as it was going to take up too much of my time! i was also hoping mark would, but he has yet to... i might still, if he doesn't... good work and obviously you are into it! i think the rules and process for mundane is different then horary and i have had this conversation a few times at skyscript over the years.. really it might be a thread for the philosophical section! cheers james

I've associated the 12th house with lies. Possibly as a feature of secret enemies.

Hillary Clinton is an interesting case study. During the 2016 campaign she had all kinds of criticism thrown at her for being a liar, notably about the incident at Benghazi under her watch as Secretary of State. Donald Trump nicknamed her "crooked Hillary." Anne Coulter claimed that HC covered up for her husband's sexual predations. Previously, the Clintons spent several years being investigated for possible impropriety in a failed real estate development named Whitewater.

On the other hand, as Secretary of State a majority of Americans thought Hillary Clinton was doing a fine job. She has a long list of honorary degrees and honours to her credit. She was popular enough to become the Democratic presidential nominee.

So.... using the commonly rectified 8:02 am birth time

In Placidus, Clinton has sun, Mercury, and Venus in the 12th house, with squares to Venus and Mercury from a 9th house Saturn and Mars.

Looks like the liar, right?

But if you switch to whole signs, Clinton's 12th house planets move to the angular first house, notably including Mercury. Her domiciled Jupiter moves to the second house ($$$.) Her Mars and Saturn move to her 10th house of career, with the sun and Mars in mutual reception.

Looks like the strong leader, right?

I don't quite know what to make of the impact of the change in house systems on whether Clinton was a truth-teller, other than to note it.

waybread,

to go back to some of quotes i shared from the old texts - mars and mercury in hard aspect being one of them - i note hilary has a mercury square mars in her chart too..

working with houses is tricky, especially if the time hasn't been verified..

from a post i made sept 2nd.. hilarys chart has mars in the superior position to mercury..


" 8. if mars and mercury are in square aspect and mars hold the superior part of the right square, this indicates a fearful outcome to all evils.. it weakens the native with constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, make him the victim of evil rumors, and stirs up dreadful dangers of accusation, so that all these difficulties end in prison... these evils grow stronger in a diurnal chart but are lessened in a nocturnal.
9. but if mercury holds the superior position and the right side, he makes the natives wicked and malicious, displaying poisonous desires, carrying on all kinds of fraud, and greedily devouring the goods of others.. they pass from one victim to another, always rapaciously seeking what they can get; eventually they are made destitute by their wicked tricks and clever frauds and in the end lose all their possessions.."