.... which is why I am skeptical of some of the old deterministic doom-and-gloom cookbook delineations.

Clinton has had many undeniable successes in her life: most recently a best-selling book.

waybread,

a person will not get very far in astrology if they aren't sceptical on pretty near everything to do with astrology! i think that goes without saying.. to flip it around on you the new 'non deterministic - you can be anything you want' cookbook delineations suck big time too!

as for h clintons success with her book... good for her!

here is the not so pretty side some folks picked up on her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtH7iv4ip1U

James, I supported Hillary Clinton, in recognizing that she-- like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders-- was a flawed candidate. I read all of the right-wing boiler-plate about "crooked Hillary."

My sole purpose in posting on this thread was to suggest how, if lying has a house connection such as the 12th, a finding of untruthfulness may be a function of the house system selected. Not to re-hash the 2016 election.

i understand waybread.. it's interesting conjecture - houses and whether there might be a component to lying built into them.. i mostly think of the planets being the active ingredients and houses being more of a passive receptor, but that is a kind of static thought which might be wrong.. i don't know..

I wouldn't see houses as having a "lying component built into them," although the 12th has a wretched reputation in traditional astrology. It's more like a given interpretation might be an artifact of the house system used. Re: the 1st and 12th, it makes a big difference in whole signs with a late degree rising.

Wolfgang wrote:In the modern version of astrology, Neptune Mercury aspects are indicative of lie (s) or liar.

b.r
Wolfgang

Wolfgang and everyone else:

I would agree that natal Mercury and Neptune is the signature of a liar and or con artist. Another signature to watch for is natal Mercury in Pisces, in square aspect or opposition to natal Mars.

A third signature of deception is Gemini rising, especially if the chart ruler is afflicted with Neptune or Mars.

I see the issue a lot differently.

Labeling someone a liar is a serious charge, because it implies deliberate deception vs. a mistaken belief. Particularly labeling someone merely on the strength of a simple Mercury-Neptune contact, because you don't know in a "blind" chart how the person has conducted herself.

A happy Mercury trine Neptune might be someone with a rich imagination who writes fiction. Wilhelm Grimm, of the Grimm brothers' fairy tales had this aspect. Thor Heyerdahl, famous for his sailing adventures and best-selling books, had a Mercury-Mars conjunction in the 9th (journeys over water) square Neptune (ocean.)

Roughly 1/12 of the entire human population will have Mercury in Pisces, or something over 633 million people. To put this in perspective, this figure is over twice the entire US population. For Gemini rising, you'd have to look at ascension times of the different signs, but we're still talking hundreds of millions of people. Then if you do the arithmetic on hard Mars aspects, giving Mars, say, a 7 degree orb, we'd allow 14 degrees x 3 on either side of the conjunction, square or opposition. That makes 42 degrees or roughly 12% of the 360 degree circle. I don't think you can say that all of these millions of people are con artists without any prior knowledge of them.

So, yeah. If we see something fishy about Mercury-- the planetary ruler of thieves and liars-- let's take note. But we cannot label someone a liar without knowing something about him.

(I have none of the suspect chart placements, so trust me on this one.)

waybread wrote:I see the issue a lot differently.

Labeling someone a liar is a serious charge, because it implies deliberate deception vs. a mistaken belief. Particularly labeling someone merely on the strength of a simple Mercury-Neptune contact, because you don't know in a "blind" chart how the person has conducted herself.

A happy Mercury trine Neptune might be someone with a rich imagination who writes fiction. Wilhelm Grimm, of the Grimm brothers' fairy tales had this aspect. Thor Heyerdahl, famous for his sailing adventures and best-selling books, had a Mercury-Mars conjunction in the 9th (journeys over water) square Neptune (ocean.)

Roughly 1/12 of the entire human population will have Mercury in Pisces, or something over 633 million people. To put this in perspective, this figure is over twice the entire US population. For Gemini rising, you'd have to look at ascension times of the different signs, but we're still talking hundreds of millions of people. Then if you do the arithmetic on hard Mars aspects, giving Mars, say, a 7 degree orb, we'd allow 14 degrees x 3 on either side of the conjunction, square or opposition. That makes 42 degrees or roughly 12% of the 360 degree circle. I don't think you can say that all of these millions of people are con artists without any prior knowledge of them.

So, yeah. If we see something fishy about Mercury-- the planetary ruler of thieves and liars-- let's take note. But we cannot label someone a liar without knowing something about him.

(I have none of the suspect chart placements, so trust me on this one.)

Yes, good little Waybread .always the humanitarian, everyone is good, never untruthful or a liar in her eyes.

I can cite many excellent examples of Mercury in Pisces being untruthful, outrageous liars, but whether it will mollify Waybread remains to be seen LOL ! I have a long time client with natal Mercury in Pisces in the 12th who admitted during a recent consultation that she was driving a motor vehicle with an expired drivers licence that she refuses to renew, because she feels that the driving licence laws in her country are cumbersome and difficult.

This client has a natal chart laden with Neptune. Pisces rising, Sun in Pisces, Neptune square natal Moon, etc.

Natal Mercury is also found debilitated in Pisces, in the 12th house of Pisces.

My advice to her (and anyone else who deliberately breaks the law) is to think about the serious karmic consequences of their actions and, when caught breaking the law, ponder the possible jail time and consequences of a criminal record.

I happen to come from a family where everyone (mother, father, daughter, brother and sister) have something in Pisces, Sun or Moon, and or Gemini or Virgo prominent.

They are all much like my Sun in Pisces client, in denial about everything, "POOR ME". playing the victim card, lying, deceiving, exaggerating facts and running from one crisis to another. Meanwhile, blaming transiting Neptune in Pisces for their woes ! LOL

The best examples of lying and deception are the ones in your own immediate family, watching the lies, the b.s., everyday !

Therefore, who do you think knows more on this subject, me or you !

sabunim, I am not your or anybody's "good little Waybread." Nor have I ever believed that "everyone is good, never untruthful or a liar." Nothing I posted leads to that surmise.

But notice a big irony here: you fabricated a deceitful description of me, a mature and not-so-little woman whom you've never met. So what does this say about the astrological signatures of deceit? Would it include your own Mercury placement?

I pointed out that roughly 1/12 of the people on the planet, or something around 633 million people, would have Mercury in Pisces. This is more than twice the population of the entire United States, which just happens to be the 3rd most populous country in the world.

I'm sure you've got some super anecdotal examples of chronic liars with Mercury in Pisces. But you do not have any kind of systematic or random sample of the global population of people with Mercury in Pisces. On even a small scale, what sort of objective research have you done with a decently large sample?

I don't believe in karma in any past- or future-lives sense. There's no hard evidence supporting it. Metaphorically I think karma hits us in this life, but not in a one-to-one correspondence. But notice how reporting this one client anecdote rhetorically situates you as the Wise One. Ditto for you being the Wise One who knows better than your family members.

But are you, truly? Note that true wisdom entails a measure of humility and compassion for people.

I basically left home at age 17 to attend college, and have seldom lived close to family members since then. None of them were/are Piscean. My 34-year old daughter's moon is in Pisces, and she also left home young to attend university. I have never found her to be deceitful by nature, but with Mercury in Virgo opposite her moon, I can attest to her rich imagination.

I have no idea what is the sum total of your astrological knowledge.

I can only say that I've been studying astrology since 1990, and for the past decade I've read hundreds of charts for people, primarily on the Astrodienst and Astrologers Community forums. You can peruse my analyses there. I estimate that on average, I get one request per week via PM for a reading. I am a happy amateur, and I have never charged for a reading. I have never been accused of being too soft on horoscope natives/querents, but have been told sometimes that I've been too hard on them.

And you?

Surely, I am entitled to an opinion, after 40 years of being a paid astrologer, and 10,000 interpretations. I don't expect much from you, but please spell my name right.

thanks,


Sabumnim

p.s. all future posts from you will be ignored.

You do not need to attempt to demean people who disagree with you. Obviously we are all entitled to our respective opinions. Surely we can have a good debate based on the astrology itself without personalizing differences of opinion. Whether you respond or not to my or anybody's posts is, of course, your call.

I thought it would be interesting to look at the Mercury placements of well-known people who were/are serious liars. Their charts are all at the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank in Placidus houses. 5 degree orb, wider for sun and moon.

Bernard Madoff: Rodden AA

Mercury retrograde in Aries in the 9th, closely square Pluto, conjunct moon in Taurus.

Donald Trump: Rodden AA

Mercury in Cancer in the 11th, square Neptune.

Richard Nixon: Rodden AA

Mercury in Capricorn in the 4th. Conjunct Jupiter and Mars in Sagittarius, opposite Pluto in Gemini

Silvio Berlusconi: Rodden A

Mercury retrograde in Libra in the 1st. Conjunct sun

John Dean: Rodden AA

Mercury in Libra in the 9th. Conjunct sun, trine Jupiter, trine moon

John Ehrlichman: Rodden AA

Mercury in Aries in the 4th, square Pluto, square Jupiter, trine Neptune. (Venus, Uranus in Pisces but no hard aspects)

Philippe Pétain Rodden AA

Mercury in Taurus in the 5th, conjunct sun, Pluto

Mata Hari: Rodden AA

Mercury in Leo in the 9th, conjunct sun, Uranus, Mars


That's all for now. Maybe celebrity liars have different Mercury placements than ordinary people do.