Hello!

I was asked a rather odd question the other day, about the outcome of a magical spell, whether or not it would produce the effect desired. My problem is that I have no idea which house rules spells and other magical operations. Could it be the 5:th? The spell being the "baby" of querent in the same manner that a written manuscript or an artwork is?

I suppose that the astrologers of old should have some notes about this, so I wonder if any of you know more about the issue, which books I should consult and so on.

Thankful for any ideas!

I think it would depend on what the spell was about ? if it was to say, protect a property, I would consider the 4th house significations; if it was about love 7th; to bless a child 5th, etc. The 12th house only seems to be associated with malicious witchcraft or ?black? magic, not spells in general.

Had a chat with a witchy friend, they said 9th, for divination. Said to check placement of 9th house ruler and any planets residing in ninth, but they should probably look at chart themselves as asking the astrologer puts outside influence on the spell... interferes with efficacy.. hmmm interesting... Of course I suspect it depends on the brand of craft you are practising?

Granny...

Thanks a lot for sharing your ideas, deb and granny!!

I'm still a bit uncertain how I should decide on this... the 9:th could be witchcraft and magic as well as religion, but the thing is that the way I understand magic it has a lot in common with art and crafts, it is a practice, and perhaps there could be the same difference between the religion (9:th) and the spell as between for example writing (3:rd) and book you have written (5:th, if you consider it to be your "baby", as Frawley suggests). A spell is something you give birth to, I think, and I've also heard that the indians put spells under the 5:th house.

Perhaps an applying aspect between the lord of the 5:th or 9:th to the lord of the house of the thing desired by the spell could show the outcome? And I could go by the option that seems most likely to happen.

I'm bewildered, but then it often happens when dealing with astrology

This is a realm I have absolutely no experience in, but it?s fun to think about.

If we think of a spell as a flow of power from the querent in order to produce results that the querent desires, then the 5th and 9th house trines to the Asc. might be possibilities. The ?easy flow? idea sort of ties in with the divination of the 9th and the creativity of the 5th. Maybe even the 10th as the house of power and influence is a consideration. This is a different approach from that offered by Deb. It?s a focus on the querent him/herself and his/her possibility to affect outcomes through power. Could be more appropriate for electional work?

At this point I favor the 9th. But the 10th as power, influence, success through strength and activity is intriguing.

I think I just may have talked myself into voting for the 10th.

I've talked myself out of voting for the 10th. I'm back to the 9th. But it seems a little dull after the excitement of the 10th's thirst for power.

Hello,

I think we must look into the purpose the spell. If it was a love spell then, we would look into 1st H, moon, 5th H and possibly 7th H(similar response to the question of love) PLUS the house of spell. If it was an attracting money spell, we might look into 1st H, moon, 2nd H, etc. PLUS the house of spell.

In any case we wish to see if the spell works. Hence, we look for conditions and aspects of the ruler of the house of spell and the ruler of the house you are interested in (2nd H for money spell, maybe 5th and 7th for love spell, etc.). For example, in attracting money spell, we want the ruler of the house of spell in good condition (essential and accidental)and in good applying aspect to the ruler of the 2nd house. We must also look into the applying aspect of moon especially to the house of interest (in this case 2nd H) because moon is the co-ruler of the querent and more importantly, moon is the natural ruler of witchcraft.

Now, which is the house of witchcraft? Is it the 12th, 10th or 9th?

12th:- House of witchcraft usually connected to malign spirits as when Lilly was asked whether a certain person was bewitched/charmed. It may also be used for people infected with malign spirits not sent by humans. I don't think this the house to use for this purpose.

10th:- House of power? I ..... don;t think so.

9th house: House of divination (among other things).

My vote? The 3rd house.

Why???!

There are two kinds of magic (loosely defined).
The "magic" that calls upon making ourselves better and more spiritual so that we understand nature and ourselves better. This type of "magic" concerns itself with our spiritual development rather than performing rituals to suit our personal needs. Part of our mission in life is to find ourselves and God and the ultimate purpose as to why we are here. Some of us find it through God directly (9th house) or through religion (9th house). How do we know that we will be able to fulfill our spiritual (9th house) needs? Sometimes we have to journey far (9th house) but we must have faith (9th house). Part of understanding ourselves can be glimpsed through astrology (9th house) and divination (9th house).

The other type of magic is the lower form of magic which calls upon natural/supernatural entities (living or nonliving) to bend "fate" to our desired outcome. This is manipulating events (supernatural if through witchcraft) to our liking. For me, this belongs to the opposite axis of the 9th, i.e. the 3rd. 9th = "higher magic", 3rd = "lower magic". There are a few examples in Liber Hermetis as to the connection of 3rd house to witchcraft (one who dabbles into the arcane arts, one who tells the future for a living, bla bla...). This also reminds me of one of the Yogas in Vedic astrology where if you find Mercury and Mars (if they are significators of profession) in the third, they become healers (which is partly witchcraft, at least a long ago). The 3rd house is the house of the goddes (9th being the house of god) and witchcraft is the realm of the goddess - ask any wicca frind of yours!

By the way, moon (natural ruler of witchcraft) finds joy in the third house (house of goddes and of witchcraft)...

10th:- House of power? I ..... don;t think so.
...
There are two kinds of magic (loosely defined).
The "magic" that calls upon making ourselves better and more spiritual so that we understand nature and ourselves better. This type of "magic" concerns itself with our spiritual development rather than performing rituals to suit our personal needs.
...
The other type of magic is the lower form of magic which calls upon natural/supernatural entities (living or nonliving) to bend "fate" to our desired outcome. This is manipulating events (supernatural if through witchcraft) to our liking.

But isn?t this all about power? In the first case it?s power over a side of ourselves ? fighting the lower demons within. We see something within us we deem undesirable and attempt to quash it. In the second case it?s power over outer circumstances to manipulate things as desired. Blatant hunger for power coming from a sense of weakness (I would suspect the same in the first case). In both cases ego as the decision-maker is actively involved. This is why I have always stayed away from such things. Astrologically, I have a low opinion of much ?astrological magic? as practiced. It?s an easy path to delusion. It's main function is to make a small ego feel bigger. There are a very few people who are qualified and aware enough to do it.

The 10th may not be the house of spells, but it does fit in here as the house of control and influence ? which is what this stuff is all about.

I?ve also been considering the 3rd house. It?s interesting as being the house of the Moon?s joy, which you said. I?m all for dancing naked in the moonlight with a high purpose in mind ? not that I?ve ever done it. The Moon has an obvious historical link with such practices, and the 3rd was traditionally the house of sects and non-mainstream religion.

But then maybe we should be looking at the 11th house ? ?Good Spirit?. It?s the house that assists us on our way of getting what we desire.

I see you?ve excitedly swung back to the 10th Kirk. Actually I was inclined towards the 10th from the start but cut that suggestion out of my first post because it felt more like an intuitive inclination than anything I could justify logically. Thinking it through it was much less of the ?power-theme? for me, than the fact that the question concerned whether something has been successful.

But I also think Granny?s post made a lot of sense and of course I can relate to Astrojin?s suggestion of Moon-3rd too! Bottom line, I think we would have to place the emphasis on the nature of the spell. However, in support of your last suggestion for the 11th house, Lilly said that if someone has a secret wish and is reluctant to divulge it, judge its likelihood of success by the 11th house and its ruler. That could be just the thing.

I?m currently hovering around the top of the chart: 9th for divination, 10th for power, control and influence, and 11th for assistance in attaining desires. It?s all centered on the 10th, above the horizon. It looks like a push for outward action in the world rather than staying at home below the horizon and waiting for a knock on the door.

I?m not so sure the nature of the spell matters. It?s not, for example, a matter of money, but of an action taken to get the money. I would be looking to see if the spell worked rather than if money showed up on the doorstep and introduced itself to me. The money would indicate that the spell worked, but the money was not my action ? the spell was.

I could easily slip into nonsensical babbling, so I had better stop. I?m already getting myself twisted into knots of confusion, but it is turning into an enjoyable exercise.

Hello again,

From Kirk:-

I?m not so sure the nature of the spell matters. It?s not, for example, a matter of money, but of an action taken to get the money.

But in electional astrological magic the matter is important (so we would expect that it is equally important in horary question on the success of magick). For example, in attracting money spell we would ideally pick:-
1. Thursday i.e. Jupiter day as Jupiter being the greater fortuna and natural significator of wealth.
2. Jupiter hour for the same reason as above.
3. Jupiter dignified and not debilitated.
4. Moon is expanding (we want money to grow).
5. Moon in the sign of greater fortuna (Sag or Pisces) or Cancer (her rulership) or in Taurus (her exaltation and natural sign of wealth).
6. Pars fortuna in 1st or 2nd house.
7. Ruler of 1st applies to a harmonious aspect to Jupiter and Ruler of the 2nd H (it's even better if ruler of the 2nd is Jupiter).
8. Moon not VOC and of course applies to a harmonious aspect to Jupiter and ruler of 2nd H.
9. Moon's next aspect is good and to a benefic.
10. Moon's last aspect is good and to a benefic.
11. Mercury not retrograde so that we dont't have to repeat the spell.
12. Other considerations.

Well, we live in the real world, hence we don't always get ideal timing. We have to weigh our choices and pick the most practical time. Anyway, if the matter is not important, many of the above criteria become moot. I think the matter is important, in horary as well as in electional astrology.

Quote:
[Kirk:] I?m not so sure the nature of the spell matters. It?s not, for example, a matter of money, but of an action taken to get the money.


[Astrojin:] But in electional astrological magic the matter is important

Hi Astrojin,
Here?s an example to show what I was getting at: The question is asked ?Is the spell to bring money in my life going to work?? The querent isn?t asking about money, but about the spell. I couldn?t see using the 2nd house in this case. We could skip the enquiry about the spell and just look to the 2nd to see if money will be arriving soon. But then we aren?t asking about the spell, it?s strictly a money question.

To elect a good time for a money-producing spell would seem to require a house for spells rather than money. We would be looking for a good time to produce a powerful, effective spell. But I don?t know...maybe we could just fortify the 2nd house and its ruler and give ourself strength through a strong Asc. and ruler. But, once again, this would mean that it?s not necessary to consider the fact that we would be using a spell.

But then again, maybe in electional work the spell is understood; it?s the action we?re electing a time for. We?re electing a time to cast a spell, so a strong link of strong Asc. and 2nd house factors would be appropriate. And then there?s the consideration of the 10th house as the success of the the action performed by the person represented by the Ascendant...

But what about horary? In a horary question it all comes down to whether we want information about the spell itself or the matter the spell is to influence. If we want to know something about a spell we look at the [?] house.