Tom ? thanks for your contribution, but I think I?m hopelessly entrenched.

Astrojin put it simply and clearly: ?Taking 11th as the house of a friend means that he IS a friend.?

By using the 11th we are calling him a friend and then asking if he will be a friend. To me this is a convoluted and bizarre way of doing things, and certainly not in the spirit of clarity and logic that traditional astrology is praised for! Using the 11th in this case is saying ?There is a house of friends, so we should use it?- a very literal approach that doesn?t look at what is being asked. What is being asked is whether this particular person will fill a particular role. The focus is on the person we are enquring after.

The direct and most logical approach is to take the 7th as the ?person enquired after?(to again quote the 7th house rulerships page) and look for a link with the house of friends.

Astrojin put it simply and clearly: ?Taking 11th as the house of a friend means that he IS a friend.?

By using the 11th we are calling him a friend and then asking if he will be a friend.

I don't see it that way at all. And as I said, if we use this line of thought, we omit the querent because we are asking if the person signified by the 7th will become signified by the 11th at some time in the future. Omitting the querent from the question seems far more bizzare to me.

Where would we look for friendship, if not the 11th? We're looking for a particular relationship or for a future relationship. That relationship is not with "any old person that we can't find another house for." Nor did Mark ask about this person without reference to himself. He asked if the relationship that began would develop into a longer lasting friendship between the person he met and himself. After hours of conversation and dinner, I don't know what other word to use for the quesited than "friend." How deep the friendship would become or how long it would last is the nature of the question, not one of transformation.

Tom

And as I said, if we use this line of thought, we omit the querent because we are asking if the person signified by the 7th will become signified by the 11th at some time in the future.

I?m not getting your point about omitting the querent. The querent has asked a question about a person who is facing or confronting him, so to speak. I?m using the 7th house of the querent?s chart to represent that other person. The querent wants to know about possible friendship with the other person, and since this is the querent?s chart the 11th house of friends is the querent?s house of friends. I don?t see any need to move any significators around.

Your point ?we are asking if the person signified by the 7th will become signified by the 11th at some time in the future? would only make sense for locating a significator for another horary question in the future. For now we are only looking for a link between the quesited and friends.

After hours of conversation and dinner, I don't know what other word to use for the quesited than "friend."

?Acquaintance?. Americans are known for using the word ?friend? somewhat freely.

Does the 11th house cover people with whom we are acquainted but have the distant and formal relationship that mere acquaintance entails? If we use the modern 11th house meanings of clubs and social groups we belong to, yes, those can entail a distance and formality. But there is a common interest that holds the group together: bird watching, astrology, etc. However, this is merely a case of looking at a possible friendship relationship between 2 people.

How deep the friendship would become or how long it would last is the nature of the question, not one of transformation.

There is the transformation from someone the querent is somewhat acquainted with to the closer relationship of friendship. This isn't a matter of degrees of friendship but an actual change to a different type of relationship.

Both approaches seem right to me, depending upon the perspective of the relationship. If the person is genuinely perceived as a friend, then obviously the 11th-house ruler is the main significator. Kirk and Astrojin?s point is whether you can legitimately regard such a new acquaintance as a friend, and whether there is an underlying question of whether this new person will become a friend or not? In that case I can relate to what they are saying about considering the 7th house ruler as the significator of the person in question with an (as yet) unspecified relationship, and then considering how the significators relate to 11th house themes. Kirk made the point that the 11th house can be just as valid in describing the nature or potential of the friendship so it?s not being ignored. But Mark seems very clear that he views this other person as a friend so that seems to settle it.

Does the 11th house cover people with whom we are acquainted but have the distant and formal relationship that mere acquaintance entails? If we use the modern 11th house meanings of clubs and social groups we belong to, yes, those can entail a distance and formality. But there is a common interest that holds the group together: bird watching, astrology, etc. However, this is merely a case of looking at a possible friendship relationship between 2 people.

I know I am drifting away from the point you are raising here but I just thought I?d mention that the 11th house has a traditional association with social friendships (those outside the family), but the 3rd house also has a traditional association with friendships, especially those within the family circle ? we tend to overlook this. The basis is that both houses relate to the friendly sextile aspect to the ascendant - the 11th house being outward and social as it inclines towards the MC, the 3rd house being inward and private as it inclines towards the IC. This seems to be the origin of our association between the 11th house and ?social groups?.

With regard to your question Mark, the applying conjunction between Mars and Saturn may indicate the friendship is currently intensifying, but I don?t think Lilly does say anywhere that we should disregard the natural symbolism of the planets. Even if he did, I wouldn?t do that. A conjunction of Mars and Saturn doesn?t seem to be an indication of an easy relationship to me, not with the Moon?s position and aspects also being difficult. I think you need to be wary that this friendship could turn out to be quite difficult to maintain in the long-run. Hope I?m wrong or that ? being aware of this ? you can make the friendship work by knowing what to expect of it.

Deb,

Hmm...I don?t know about this. If we say that Mark views the other person as a friend ?giving us the occasion to use the 11th house ruler for the significator? then we are left wondering what to do with the fact that he originally asked if the person would be a friend. The statement ?My question was is this going to be a good friendship or just a chance meeting...? tells me that the existence of friendship is questioned.

The problem may lie with the question itself. Maybe the question would have been clarified if Mark had consulted another horary astrologer: a good astrologer would have asked him how he viewed the other person. Once it was established that he viewed him as a friend the question settled upon could have been ?What kind of friendship will we have??

Is this another warning about asking and delineating our own horaries? And, more importantly, am I obnoxiously persistent? Maybe it's time for me to find another topic. Anyone for defining 'cusp'? That one didn't go anywhere.

I appreciated your comments about friendship and the 3rd & 11th houses.

Kirk

The statement ?My question was is this going to be a good friendship or just a chance meeting...? tells me that the existence of friendship is questioned.

I know what you are saying there, but after the point was raised with Mark he obviously considered it and took the view that the friendship had already been established. I think we have to credit him with the ability to make the call on that if he feels sure about it.

am I obnoxiously persistent?

As if ! Well, it?s not as though I?m disagreeing with your argument, but if we get stuck on the definition of ?a friend? this could go on forever ... In the meantime, neither approach seems particularly promising; using the 7th or 11th house ruler still gives the signs of difficulties.

I appreciated your comments about friendship and the 3rd & 11th houses.

I appreciated your thoughtfulness in saying so, but I don't think I'm up for 'cusp' discussions today .....

just a querry, but, If I looked at the chart as I am the chart where does this person fall in my chart, the person being ascendent and moon, would that function?

I mean you are asking What is this persons placement in my life???

thoughts?

Granny

I've been out of town using the damn expensive hotel PC but without my forum password so I've only been able to read but not respond.

I strongly disagree with the approach to use the 7th house because the relationship is allegedly undefined. First is it not undefined at all. I saw the guy as a potential friend. In a totally different circumstance, I might have asked "Will this person be a friend or a lover?" In that case and in that case only would I have used the 7th house, but I would have also used the 11th house ruler as well. I don't think of the 7th house as "other" in the sense of everything else not previously designinated. It's not a cosmic sock drawer of mis-matched socks. It has a definite meaning. The "other" that the 7th house refers to is the other party who we are joined with in a tight and intense manner - lovers, enemies, our opposites.

When someone has a job interview and wants to know about the prospective empoyer, NO ONE uses the 7th house ruler for the job or the employer. We use the 10th house ruler, even when there is no current business relationship there.

Deb, I agree with you about not ignoring the malefic nature of Saturn and Mars. I do think that being conjunct is different from a trine or sextile though and I think Lilly advises that interpretation. As I said, when I first wrote that I was tired and didn't look that up.

Hello,

I don't think of the 7th house as "other" in the sense of everything else not previously designated.

and I don't think others think like that.

It's not a cosmic sock drawer of mis-matched socks. It has a definite meaning.

Of course it has definite meaning AND of mis-matched socks. The 7th H governs intimate relationships (plus partners/associates) AND open enemies. You can't get more mismatch than that!

When someone has a job interview and wants to know about the prospective empoyer, NO ONE uses the 7th house ruler for the job or the employer.

Yes, almost all of us would pick 10th H ruler for job/employer. But prospective employer may not be the person who interviews you (who probably is another person from HR). In this case employer/job = 10th ruler, interviewers = 7th H ruler simply because the interviewers are the people we see eye to eye (our mismatch mix of associates and open enemies).

Deb, I agree with you about not ignoring the malefic nature of Saturn and Mars.

Of couse you must not.

I do think that being conjunct is different from a trine or sextile though and I think Lilly advises that interpretation.

Of course conjunction is different than sextile or trine which probably gives a positive outcome. But Mars conjuncts Saturn in Leo (the house where Saturn hates?). Conjunction is union but is this going be a happy union? (the conjunction is applying - it says something that is to come not the past meeting). The upcoming union (which is a strong probability) is probably not going to be a happy one. Which one is better? An unhappy union or no union?

Lilly is a Master horary practitioner par excellence but even he tripped himself. When he wanted to buy somebody's house, he used the concept of square = trine in a sign of long ascension to give a positive outcome (John Frawley has a lot to say about this). Sometimes when its important, it's really difficult to be objective when reading one's own chart. Doctors should not operate on themselves!

Astrojin made the employer/interviewer distinction I?ve been thinking about. If the querent is more concerned about an interview as a crucial hurdle to cross towards getting the job, the 7th house makes sense in a question concerning the interview. We are ?facing off? with the interviewer, and that seems very 7th house. Of course this isn?t the same as ?Will I get the job??, but it may be on the querent?s mind the most if it?s known that the interviewer is unpleasant and makes biased judgments.

And that had absolutely nothing to do with meeting a new friend.

How can you see a person who interviews you as a job as an open enemy? Just because you're talking to them one on one doesn't make this a 7th house matter in the least. If you have a job interview with the HR person, or the head of the company or someone working for an intermediary, you'd look to the 10th house because it's all about your career.

If you're being interview or doing anything else for that matter with an open enemy I'd look at the 7th and it's ruler, but in a job situation I'd still look to the 10th first. But inherently the 7th house seems to have nothing to do with the process of a normal job interview.

And I do think that some are advocating using the 7th house ruler to stand in for "relationships not otherwise defined" which I can't justify myself.