james_m wrote:aj,

thanks.. check your pms when you have some time...

ordinarily the idea of 2 planets in trine ( using most of the predictive tools - transits and etc. etc.) in modern astrology is seen as a positive... my experience has been it depends on their relationship and position in the natal chart.. i think the natal relationship is brought forth when they connect via the different systems astrologers have to use.. with that in mind, the primary directions for richard branson in this window of time show sun directed to a trine to saturn.. this is another way that saturn is engaged here.. ]

Another good insight james.

I have to agree with you that relationship is an often overlooked key in western astrology. Indian astrology has this as one of its core principles. From the sidereal perspective (or mine) Saturn rules the 8th house of obstructions and death-like experiences so the Saturn influence in RB's chart right now is certainly strong as you have emphasized. The primary direction Sun/Saturn trine is not so good because in natural zodiacal relationship Saturn is neecha (debilitated) in the Sun's exaltation sign Aries (and vice versa) Not a good intermix of basic energies trine or not IMO, the Sun and Saturn are basically enemies.

Also as previously mentioned, I think, the main period Jupiter is natally badly placed in the 8th house of Aquarius, Saturn's house. Another strong Saturnian connection because Saturn disposes Jupiter.

I bring myself back to the P3Saturn conjunct the IC (as you pointed out previously) as another main factor that this upcoming space launch will at the least have major obstructions and or death-like experiences connected to it for RB as well as the crappy transits of 6th lord Jupiter and other configs already mentioned by all.

よ????????????
Yoku natte.

thanks aj,

i was looking at the example that isaac and stefan had mentioned..

Isaac Starkman wrote: On 22 August 2011 his house, located on Necker Island in the British Virgin Islands, was destroyed, along with "thousands of photographs and notebooks.". Converse transit Saturn was exactly on his Asc.

isaac is using his rectified 7:12:38am time for this, but in looking at the primary directions, i note using the 7am time sun converse to saturn for july of 2011.. it looks like this off morinus software..



a comparison chart to his natal looks like this for july 2011...



it seems to me the fact that the 2nd house has a strong connection to possessions, this event has a strong connection to one of the prominent pds active for this time in mid 2011...

with regard to the use of converse transits, i was first introduced to the concept of converse thru r c davisons book, the technique of prediction... it is quite a thought provoking book... solar fire astro prog allows one to explore this option and i have waxed and waned on using it, but do believe like you that it has a lot of merit.. i think in answer to your earlier question of starting up a thread on the use of different techniques is best done piecemeal like i am doing in this thread, but i would be happy if someone wanted to start a thread on that...

my problem with rectification software is, first off not knowing who designed it and what went into the design features, and 2ndly continuing to wonder if it is a point to point approach, or capable of taking 2 points to a point approach for example... when i see the suggested chart that isaac is offering, it is essentially putting pluto directly on the ascendant... now as it happens mercury-moon midpoint in bransons chart is right at his pluto at 24 cancer sidereal... so how are these astro dynamics factored into isaacs rectification software?? i have too many questions and not sure if isaac is willing or able to give answers on them here..

here is what the converse transits to the natal in sidereal look like in a biwheel with the transits on the outer wheel..



i get conflicted with all the options and have noticed how it is easy to find the astro to solidify a position astrologically.. it is very difficult to stay objective on it all.. the ideal scenario is an AA birth time.. failing that the concept of rectification is tricky as i see it... i feel the same way about rectification software programs, but perhaps this is the way of the future and i need to be receptive to advances in this area..

Hello folks, some addititional info about the house fire 22 aug 2011 in Richard Branson's chart....

There is in his natal chart one particular aspect that contains the potential of fire in the home. It is the aspect between the moon (home significator) and mars (fire significator).¨

With the 7:12:28 rectified time the solar arc directions show activation of that aspect axis in two ways.

1.) Solar arc ASC (and sa pluto) contacting natal mars and moon.

SA ASC-00-MA
Sa ASC-45-MO

2.)

Solar arc Mars and moon is contacting natal MC/IC axis.

SA MA-135-MC
SA MO-00-IC


If adding to this as written in an earlier post in this thread, that in Tertiary progressions, the MC (solar arc in RA method) is squaring natal Mars, and semisquaring natal moon.

(Tp MC-90-MA)

It seems to me that the rectification is gaining momentum....

Interesting that Isaac himself don't use solar arcs or tertiary progressions in his rectification. Which actually in my view is increasing the value of this additional confirmation.

Interesting.........[/quote]

Thanks James for presenting the converse directions for RBranson and thoughts on the loss of his property.

james_m wrote: i get conflicted with all the options and have noticed how it is easy to find the astro to solidify a position astrologically.. it is very difficult to stay objective on it all.. the ideal scenario is an AA birth time.. failing that the concept of rectification is tricky as i see it... i feel the same way about rectification software programs, but perhaps this is the way of the future and i need to be receptive to advances in this area..

I hear ya. What you are talking about is "selective perception" and its a problem we all face as astrologers. I try and not to but yet selective perception is always a phantasm ready to cloud my myopic vision at any time. Cases in point is the discussion of Branson's chart (which I still favor a few minutes before the given time of 0700, yet Issac's rectification also seems convincing within the techniques he uses, software-generated aside), Isaac also gives a rectification for Donald Trumps chart for 10:34 (rounded) that has been discussed briefly here on Skyscript (see ref below).

Now DT's birth time is given as 10:54 which is Rodden AA, and frankly, I find the 10:54 time works quite well and see no need to rectify it. Again if you follow the link to his blog the event hits within the topocentric method and the 10:34 chart presented for DT presents a good argument.

Now I do not use topocentric methods or tropical for that matter but yet we both have a different "selective perception" of these two charts (Branson and Trump). Who is right? Is there wrong when speaking within distinct or eclectic astrological systems?

Here’s another instance. Stefan has found additional solar arcs and a natal configuration for the tragic burning down of RB’s home using the rectified 7:12 chart. Yet on the other hand from my sidereal perspective, I still prefer the earlier time because there are no transits within a degree to any planet or house using the 07:12 chart, but with the 0700 chart transiting destructive 8th lord Saturn is separating within a degree of the Equal Bhava Madhya of the third house aspecting the fifth, eighth ninth and 12th (RB lost a wealth of personal and other career stuff, original recordings and the like). Back the BT a few minutes earlier to 0655 and the aspect is exact. Also, most birth times are recorded as having occurred somewhat later than they actually were. Yet I would not be so pretentious as to declare Stefan wrong. His contributions to this forum are well thought out and astrologically sound.

So James, your point that it is easy to fit many astro events to solidify any astrological position is quite true. Having just come full circle I think it is an important issue for everyone to be aware and that not one of us is immune.

I know if I or any astrologer tries hard enough and include enough techniques or “points??? of celestial confetti with or without hypothetical planets you can validate any chart or event.

I'm not sure there is a way out of the "selective perception" spiral in or out the different schools and individual practice of astrology, let alone personal politics, (but that is for another forum I think) other than respecting differing opinions.

Now as far as rectification software, myself et al really haven't seen them work all that well. In any tests I have performed they all fail and sometimes get close, but never right on. Not unlike manual rectification, I guess. Now I must say I have not used or tested Issac's software but just following several of the rectifications given by him I can't say that I would not expect to change my opinion but this could be explained by my "selective perception".

The two types of rectification software I tested a while back, maybe two years ago, one was confined to a distinct technique and omitted all others using primaries only, Van Dam I think, and would not consider transits or progressions. The other software module allows you to use many systems, transits, day for a year, solar arc etc. no mundane primaries with several proposed charts at once or just one chart scoring each event with the differing progressions; leaving it up to the astrolgoer to choose the best fit or tweak the chart and run it again. [BTW... These tests used approximate birth times.] Faster just to take a stab at it with that module.

I have yet to see a program, or an individual astrologer for that matter get a 24-hour rectification correct. My conclusion is that software rectification is not reliable at this time, especially with Indian astrological techniques. Primaries IMO were the best engine that powered the software rectification car but its a Yugo, if you catch my meaning. Issac may be on to something with the topocentric primaries but it would take a lot for me to be convinced.

Rectification is a slippery slope even for very experienced astrologers that can isolate the factors for each event. Astrologers can't help themselves fiddling with the even the best of documented birthtimes myself included.

‌My selective perceptions, be well.

References:
[:-? Post by Fadi initially as his own rectification but closing credits it as Issac's rectification. I am a bit confused between the synchronicity of Fadi and Isaac's posts I've seen on Skyscript.]
“Skyscript.Co.Uk :: View Topic - Rectification: Donald Trump.??? 2011. Skyscript.Co.Uk. 2011. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=.

Rodden, Lois. 2017. “Donald Trump, Horoscope for Birth Date 14 June 1946, Born in Jamaica Hospital Queens (Queens County), with Astrodatabank Biography - Astro-Databank.??? Astro.Com. 2017. https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald.

AJ wrote:

So James, your point that it is easy to fit many astro events to solidify any astrological position is quite true. Having just come full circle I think it is an important issue for everyone to be aware and that not one of us is immune.

I know if I or any astrologer tries hard enough and include enough techniques or “points??? of celestial confetti with or without hypothetical planets you can validate any chart or event.

I'm not sure there is a way out of the "selective perception" spiral in or out the different schools and individual practice of astrology, let alone personal politics, (but that is for another forum I think) other than respecting differing opinions.

AJ, many thanks for a great post on the dilemma we all face! "Selective perception"....couldn't be better said. We also have the timing dilemma between tropical and sidereal transits. These will hit at different times due to precession, especially later in life. So the zodiac controversy has to ultimately be settled.

thanks aj,

i 2nd thereses comments to you as well... being objective is really quite difficult and i will be the first to admit it.. as a consequence i tend to not let others off easy either! regarding your reference points, i had a similar conclusion more recently on this thread - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10561

i was looking at more data on branson and admire what stefan was doing in his examples above which is what an astrologer has to do if they want to entertain different times and possible rectification methods.. in using the 7 or 712am times, i can't come up with anything definitive myself.. i looked at the bike accident he had on aug 20 2016 - exactly 5 years to the day after the house fire where he lost some of his possessions.. nothing conclusive is seen in it all from my end.. it is a real challenge working with rounded off times, but i am unfortunately not sold on rectification software either!

Hmmm... It's 11 days until Richard Branson's announced launch into space and the media is eerily quiet about this event. It's especially odd since Virgin Galactic just announced today they are going public soon. If you want PR and media blitz now is the time to generate buzz before you go public. If I were Virgin Galactic's Marketing Manager I would be having my field day right now. Perhaps in a few more days, we'll hear something but now's the time to announce the circus is coming to town.

Maybe I missed it on my news feed but it seems odd to me we have not had some social media or updated news about it.

RB's transiting Saturn 8th lord of obstacles with Ketu in the sixth house, too many sudden hindrances/disputes/health?

Dodson, Marianne. 2019. “Richard Branson’s Virgin Galactic Plans to Go Public.??? The Daily Beast. The Daily Beast. July 9, 2019. https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-b ... -go-public.

‌

Hello

Just saying that I share many of the ideas expressed here generally about rectification and so forth. I will not elaborate on my wiews about it here as I have done it on some other forums during the years, and don't want to go that same road again.
But I am enjoying testing charts as a discipline of astrology. It is highly enjoyable. Right or wrong about the time is not the issue here...just pure 8th house exploring, feeding my 8th house placements of sun, mercury and jupiter. The concentration required stills the mind and is enjoyable imo.


About Isaac
, I have some good experiences with his rectifications, including my own chart. So I am generally positive biased as to his work. But I do not agree with his work many times as well.

As for Bransons chart I focused here more on western techniques as we are in that section now. But I have also looked at his jyotish chart with divisional charts. There is not that much differences there with the 7:00 time and the 7:12 time.

But one thing stands out imo in his many subcharts is that planet venus (music) is repeating it's sign position gemini in soo many key subcharts. And venus is in own sign in navamsha chart. This explains to me some about his success with music related affairs. Some good karma there.

Venus is also ruling his 4th house (homes) in his sidereal whole sign chart, so the strength of venus as ruler gives his many good homes, including his own Island in a 'distant place'. Which is spot on with venus as ruler of 4th placed in 12th house (foreign, distant places).
(He bought the Island 1978,

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/ ... ker-island

which give venus as subperiod for that bargain !
It was in the major period of the sun. The sun is vargottam in the 4th house in his subchart for homes Chaturthamsha (which is true for the 7:12:28 time, but not the 7:00 time.
In chaturthamsha home chart the 7:12 time sun is 5th ruler placed in 4th house, which give good karma with home in the sun period.
In 7:00 chaturthamsha home chart... the sun is 8th ruler placed in 7th.


the burning down of his home 2011 was in a moon subperiod. Moon is placed in scorpio in his 8th house of upheaval and changes in 7:12 chart.)

So this look at the Chaturthamsha home chart with the periods was another key that made me think that his birth is some time after 7 am.






Yes, we will see how this new adventure turns out for him ?

Great insights on both the western and the sidereal charts Stefen. Much food for thought.

Yes, I am very curious now it is getting closer to the announced date of RB's "adventure" flight into space.

Be Well.

stefan,

thanks! great comments.. i 2nd aj's comment to you..

i have never worked with the D4 chart, so your use of this is quite fascinating to me.. after looking at a number of the divisional charts for branson, it is true - venus in gemini shows up more then a few times..

below are the 7am and 712:38am D4 charts.. as one can quickly see, a 12 minute difference really alters the angles and house positions..





although i haven't read this book by vp goel on divisional charts, i am going to quote a few of his comments on the examination of D4 charts..

"1. Jupiter is the signifactor of happiness and is examined in D4 for its status, placement etc. jupiter in 6,8,12 houses gives despair for wealth.. mars is the signifcator built up properties.. venus is for luxuries and vehicles, moon for mental happiness and mother, mercury for education, saturn for friends and masses, change of residence after marriage for girls..

2. see the relation of 2nd lord, 11th lord of D1 chart with jupiter in D4 chart.. a good relation assures happiness.

3. formation of dhana yoga in D4 assures wealth and happiness.

4. presence of rajyoga gives enjoyment of wealth.

5. mars is the signifactor of fixed assets.. strong mars is a must for owning land/buildings.. mars in 10th house of D4 is best placement for granting fixed assets.

6. tenth lord of D1 chart, if related to lagna or lagna lord of D4 then lots of income from properties is assured.

7. ketu in 4th house or related to 4th house gives loss of assets due to natural calamity.

there are another 12 points!!! it is all mostly greek to me.. i find the whole use of divisional charts, or what are called harmonic charts in the west - fascinating, so it is all something i quite interested in and fascinated with... thanks stefan for the encouragement to continue my studies in this direction in your own roundabout way!

if anyone wants to follow up talking about the D4 chart - i made a new post and included the other 12 points from v. p. goels book here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 857#111857

stefan,

i am curious how many other divisional charts you examined in a similar manner? i was looking at teh D10 and D9 charts this morning... although i don't have anything firm to communicate about what i was looking at, i thought i would ask if you had looked at more of the divisional charts in a comparative way?

here are the D9 - navamsha charts for consideration... without looking which one is which - which one makes more sense to you, aj and others??

i am curious how many other divisional charts you examined in a similar manner? i was looking at teh D10 and D9 charts this morning... although i don't have anything firm to communicate about what i was looking at, i thought i would ask if you had looked at more of the divisional charts in a comparative way?

Hi James,
Yes I am working with the divisional charts both static and dynamically.
looking at it dynamically by seeing the planetary periods in the particular varga (divisional chart) for clues about the periods manifestation in that area of life.

The Navamsha chart can give clues both as life in general and for relationships.

In this case both navamshas have strength so it is not easy to distinguish between them as both have value. But Having looked at it closer I think I go for the jupiter rising vargottama aquarius navamsha.
Jupiter plays a big role in Bransons way of expressing himself imo generally. So this strong vargottama jupiter in navamsha makes sense, it is aspecting by mars 3rd lord (I use aspects in navamsha chart, which is a no-no for some astrologers, but that is what I been learned). 3rd lord of adventure and courage mars influencing lagna with jupiter makes sense.
Ascendant saturn is in the fortunate 9th house exalted with venus in libra own sign, this gives a great raja yoga as well combining 1st and 9th lord in a fortunate trikona (aspected by jupiter which is wealth significator for a aqua lagna.
Venus 4th lord of homes is in own sign conjuncting lagna lord in 9th house foreign places. It is placed with saturn 12th lord ( distant places), fitting his nice Island home luxury. Which was aquired in venus subperiod as is echoing the same rulership from his birth chart.

EDIT
His first child died. He have rahu in 5th house (first child) aspected by saturn in 8th house. (sorry, not in navamsha - I'm talking about his saptamsha child chart here)

This child died 1979, in moon-moon period probably. Moon is in 5th house in this navamsha, 5th ruler in 8th house with rahu.

He married first time 1972 in venus-ketu period.
Ketu subperiod makes sense in this navamsha as ketu gives result according to jupiter, which is placed in ascendant giving key event.


In looking at Dwadashamsha chart (parents).
From 7:05 there is aries ascendant in this divisional chart.
He comes from a family of lawyers and judges. His 9th house of father is sag with jupiter exalted in cancer in 4th house (roots) in association with a vargottama sun, gving a picture of a good father lawyer.
Mother was air hostess and dancer. From 4th house the 10th house ruler is placed with venus (art) in 12th house (distant places, yoga for travel in job).

The earlier ascendant for dwadashamsha chart have debilitated moon and ketu in 9th house (father), does not make sense.

D-24 Siddhamsha education
In this chart with 7:12 rectified time, we have a debilitated venus in 8th house (very weak). It was in his venus major period he struggled with his dyslexia and education.
"Branson has dyslexia and had poor academic performance;"
In this chart which is true from 7:12 venus is ruler of 4th house (primary edu) and 9th house (higher edu), This poor venus placement denies academic success.

"Honours and awards


In 1993, Branson was awarded an honorary degree of Doctor of Technology from Loughborough University

This was in mars dasha and probably rahu subperiod.
Mars is in cap exalted in siddhashamsha edu chart. rahu is in 11th house of rewards.


Navamsha chart