james_m wrote: as for mercury as malefic or benefic - do you believe mercury is connected to a malefic to make it malefic, or could it be malefic purely based on being in the 12th? i see it is tied to rahu via trine... is that what you are thinking?

i really want to get a grip on what is or isn't a benefic and malefic according to indian astrology... as you mentioned previously - this is not an easy task.

Leaving aside the complicated business of functional benefics and malefics in Indian astrology...
At its most basic the natural roles of the planets in traditional Jyotish as benefic and malefic are the same as in western astrology but with a few different nuances.
The unqualified benefics are Venus and Jupiter.
The unqualified malefics are Mars, Saturn Rahu and Ketu.
The Sun is termed a "lighter" malefic and when is in its own sign or exalted is termed "cruel" rather than malefic. Some schools stick with the cruel description of the Sun in all signs.
The Moon is a benefic but at New Moon is very weak and acts as a malefic. (When applying to the Sun within 24 degrees.) Moon is weak within 72 degrees of the Sun, but this is a minor weakness at the limits.
Mercury is neutral and when alone or in association with benefics is a benefic, when associated with malefics is malefic, when with both benefics and malefics equally gives mixed results.
The malefic in increasing severity are New Moon, Sun, Mars/Ketu, Saturn/Rahu. Mercury depends on which malefics it is associated with.
Benefics in increasing order are Mercury alone and not associated with malefics, Venus, Mercury with a benefic, no malefics, Jupiter.

i can't help but think we are complicating it by running everything thru 3 charts as opposed to the one chart.. i do believe the lunar and solar charts are quite relevant and can help give us more information, but my feeling is they wouldn't have been used this way with this concept of profections... i have no way of substantiating this though! i can fall back on the book i reference above, but this takes us away from indian astrology into persian astrology!! i do believe they are connected however and i ponder what was retained and what was lost in the communications between these different cultures... i don't have a clear picture of the history of india, but i do recall visiting india and places like jodphur where there seem to be a lot of history that makes me think the info from persia and india would have cross pollinated at some point in history..

No doubt, Tajika astrology is mostly of Arab/Persian origin. I have no idea about Sudarshan Chakras origins but I would not be surprised. So many of the terms in Jyotish are greek in origin that much of it must have come from them in hoary times. One of the earliest classical texts even attributes the Greeks, but I am not really much of a scholar of such things.
The tri-wheel Sudarshan Chakra avoids this by using the SC dasha (aka profection) per houses versus the sign approach. It remains to be seen if it really is better than considering the Solar and Lunar charts for additional insights, or themes in the natal chart. In practice, I consider the Solar and Lunar (mostly) charts much like I do vargas in that the natal chart has the weight of about 80% while for vargas it is about 20%. In some cases, the planets are so weak and afflicted in the natal chart that consideration of the varga charts is irrelevant. This is a general statement. There are times when the natal chart in spite of some houses being seemingly strong in the natal chart, perform poorly. When the concerned varga is analyzed with the natal chart all falls into place along with the dasha/bhukti if the birth time is correct.

It feels odd giving all three charts equal weight.

Now there is that somewhat quizzical rule v. 19-20. The sage replied. The results should be declared in accordance with the Sudarshana
Chakra, only when Surya and Chandra being in separate Rasis different from the Rasi of Lagna. If amongst Lagna, Surya and Chandra, all three, or two of them are in the same Rasi, the judgment of effects should be made from the Rasi Kundalini only.
So maybe each of the charts is not so equal in weight? Someone born at New Moon you would only consider the natal chart for instance. Thoughts on that?
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so, i am back to trying to define what is a benefic and malefic to hamishs chart.. as far as venus vargottama in hamishs chart - this sounds like both you and therese view this as a negative... venus is a natural signifactor for marriage and relationship and perhaps a persons relationships with women in particular.. it would also be a symbol for artistic involvement... all this would depend on not just the sign, but the house and aspects to venus too... that would make it more personal... hamish as i think i said - is on his 3rd marriage... the last one happened on dec 31st 1999.. below is the chart for this event which took place in tanzania, africa...

Therese confirmed what I researched many years ago about vargotamma.

I will ponder the other dates you provided for Hamish's weddings.

thanks aj,

the benefic / malefic descriptions are much like western astrology, with the exception western astrology doesn't involve rahu-ketu that much and when they do - it is a variety of views ranging from rahu - positive, ketu - negative to everything in between and reverse based on what i have read... the additional factor which is hellensitic is related to sect, so in a day chart like hamishs, mars would be considered more malefic then saturn.. mercury would be better if it was rising ahead of the sun in a day chart, as opposed to be rising after the sun.. venus is less benefic as it functions better in a night chart and when setting... this is some of my limited understanding of hellenistic astrology.. i don't know that the nature of the nodes was given near as strong attention in western astrology as it has in indian astrology...

regarding the 3 charts that are a part of the Sudarshan Chakra tri-wheel, the passage you have noted really implies the strongest of the charts is the birth chart, as opposed to the lunar and solar charts putting moon or sun as first house... i am inclined to think that the profection data which creates the 1 year dasa is gotten only off the ascendant for the 1 chart... in fact in the pdf you shared, there is no mention of running it off the 3 different ascendants...

below is the profection chart for dec 31st 1999 when hamish was married a 3rd time..



in biwheel format



the main dasa lord for 1999 would be venus.. for the month of december the sublord would be saturn, so at the time of his 3rd marriage, the dasa lords are venus-saturn..

what are you thoughts on the role of saturn in libra having venus in virgo ruling over it? it seems in terms of longevity of a relationship, the 3rd marriage of hamishs has worked out the best...

james_m wrote: in fact in the pdf you shared, there is no mention of running it off the 3 different ascendants...

I don't think this is correct, the focus of the chapter on Sudarshan Chakra is prediction from the SC dasha. This chapter and all of BPHS takes a very careful reading.

Verses 21-26 speak of using the SC houses as a basis for predicting by using the dasha period in question as the first house. In essence, turning the wheel to evaluate the condition of each house, or sphere of life during that period and sub-period.

Here is my write up on what I gathered as the primary rules as outlined in ch74 and thoughts on Hamish's 3rd marriage below as well as some commentary I guess on the primary rules given in ch 74.

Right or wrong here it is...

From ch 74 v. 24-26: At the time of commencement of a Dasa, if there be benefic in the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 5th, 9th and 8th, favorable effects will be experienced in the concerned year, month, etc. The Bhava, which is occupied by Rahu, or Ketu, becomes harmful. The same will be the fate of the Bhava, which is occupied by a larger number of malefics. If there are benefics in Bhavas other than the 12th or 6th, the Bhava concerned will produce favorable effects. In other words, if the benefics be in the 12th or 6th from the Bhava concerned, unfavorable effects will be derived in the related year, month, etc. If there be malefics in the 3rd, 6th and 11th from the Bhava, assuming the role of Lagna, then these three Bhavas will produce auspicious results.

Ch 74 here is essentially “turning the wheel??? to the dasha of the time period under question. Houses are evaluated as generating good, bad and mixed results by the occupation of malefics or benefics in them.
The delineation rules follow for the most part Parashari principles.
1. Good results of the houses with Benefics in house 1, 4, 7, 10 or 5, 9, plus 8.
2. Good = Malefics in the 3rd 6th and 11th from ascendant of the year. (Houses 3, 6, 11 and 10 are the Upachaya houses or “houses of growth???. Traditionally malefics do well here. Benefics are good in the 3rd, 10th and 11th.
3. Bad results = Benefics in the 12th or 6th from the ascendant of the year.
4. Rahu or Ketu in any house.

1 and 2 show the good results of the houses as counted from the dasha house, or ascendant of the year and it is interesting that house 2 is missing. This must be a scribal error. These are all good houses except the 8th. The 8th house can be good for benefics in special cases and this is mentioned I believe in Phaldipeeka as astrayoga but the benefic has to be exalted, own sign etc. or beneficially aspected. My own sense is that this would also apply here. Ch 74 is quiet about malefics in the 8th but the classical scriptures are often abbreviated leaving the reader to fill in the rest or traditionally under the gurus' direction. Logic would dictate that the malefics in the 8th counted from the dasha house are bad for that house.

Items 3 and 4 indicate the bad results for the house as counted from the dasha house, or ascendant of the year. Benefics in house 6 or 12 is bad, it can be inferred that malefic planets are even worse except when in the 3rd, 6th, and 11th. Rahu and Ketu in any house spoil it.

Hamish's 3rd Marriage
Hamish’s third marriage on 12/31/1999 the main period of SC house 11, and sub of SC 12th was running. The period and sub-period ran from 12/4/1999 to 1/3/2000.

Let’s walk through the SC dasha period given above. Just the dasha, not looking at transits or anything else and sticking to very obvious and basic astrology here.

On the face of it just looking at house 11 in the SC chart nothing jumps out at me to suggest marriage. Same with the subperiod house 12. There is an aspect from Ketu and Saturn to the SC7th but this would suggest divorce rather than marriage. None of the planets in the SC12th aspect any of the houses suggesting marriage except Mars to the SC7th and this too just reinforces the suggestion of a divorce rather than a marriage.

Following the rules in Ch7 the SC7th house is the ninth from the dasha house the 11th. It is occupied singly by benefic Jupiter so the affairs of this house should prosper during the 11th house dasha. If we consider the sub-period of the SC12th the SC7th is the eighth from the 12th and still benefic Jupiter according to the rules above bodes well for the seventh house of marriage and partners if you consider Jupiter strong in the turned 8th house, but Jupiter is a great enemy of Mercury and here IMO does not do so well in the derived 8th house.

The method has a flaw. Can you see it? What about some other houses during that period? Let’s look at a house that isn’t quite so good according to the rules above and maybe James can ask Hamish what didn’t do so well as a test of Sudarshan Chakra.

I chose the SC10th house because it is one of the more complicated houses. Hamish’s SC10th is twelfth from the SC11th, the dasha house during the period in question. SC10th is occupied by 2 malefics Ketu and Mars, 3 benefics Moon, Jupiter, and Venus. Venus and the Moon are weak. Off the top I would say this would give mixed results for tenth house matters, but Ch 74 says Ketu spoils any house so taking this on face value lets predict that there were sudden and/or unexpected professional difficulties for Hamish during this subperiod, even though the SC10th is the eleventh house from the sub-period SC 12th and malefics are good here. Remember though, the Moon’s Nodes spoil any house they occupy according to Ch. 74.

Hamish's 1st Marriage
Here’s the problem. If you look at just the main period, Hamish’s first marriage was on 11/3/1969 during the beginning of the SC main period of the fifth house. The fifth house of emotions and higher education is activated as “the ascendant of the year??? in the words of ch 74. The SC7th house Jupiter is the third house from the SC5th and would do well for matters of marriage in this sub-period.

Examining closer according to the rules the SC7th house occupied by Jupiter is well disposed of in most years, excepting dasha years 2 and 6 when Jupiter falls in the 6th and 12th houses respectively from the ascendant of the year (dasha house year).

There’s nothing in this method that highlights an event house from the background of everything else unless it is the sub-period, but even this fails using the ch.74 method for Hamish’s 1st wedding as the sub-period is the 5th house too.

My conclusion is that there is just not a way to differentiate actual events with this method as outlined in ch74 and the SC dasha does not reflect in my opinion Hamish’s first and third marriages at all.

Even now at the last if you invoke transiting planets there is only activation of Jupiter during Hamish's 1st marriage, not the third. Prediction even in hindsight fails here with the method as outlined in BPHS ch74.

aj,

thanks for putting in the time and effort to come to the conclusions you do here.. your conclusions sound fairly drastic! i think either your conclusions are correct, or we are missing something in understanding it all... obviously i have not read BPHS so, i may not be able to understand chapter 74 on SC properly..

you have outlined the nature of the planets being either benefic of malefic really well here, to the point it is very easy to understand..

i am curious... does the BPHS offer any charts? the software you are using may direct our imagination to perceive this a certain way.. the astrologers at the time might have imagined it differently? i suppose i am falling back on my original comment you quote at the top of your post and which you don't believe is correct... falling an alternative view, perhaps we have been stalemated here??

AJ wrote:
The method has a flaw. Can you see it?

-----
My conclusion is that there is just not a way to differentiate actual events with this method as outlined in ch74 and the SC dasha does not reflect in my opinion Hamish’s first and third marriages at all.

Even now at the last if you invoke transiting planets there is only activation of Jupiter during Hamish's 1st marriage, not the third. Prediction even in hindsight fails here with the method as outlined in BPHS ch74.

i continue to believe the flaw in the method is using 3 different charts, as opposed to one for the primary dasa... but i can accept i am wrong on this too.. i am not sure of the flaw that you are seeing..

i do believe if the system is unable to be verified in hindsight, it is no good with foresight!

i have looked at some alternative approaches to verifying the 3rd marriage... the solar return for hamish 1999 seems to suggest the 3rd marriage the best... the tertiary progressions also have some data that lend support... there is really not much in the solar arc directions...

maybe we have to keep an open mind to the idea we don't really understand this method that was being used in the past?

james_m wrote:aj,

thanks for putting in the time and effort to come to the conclusions you do here.. your conclusions sound fairly drastic! i think either your conclusions are correct, or we are missing something in understanding it all... obviously i have not read BPHS so, i may not be able to understand chapter 74 on SC properly..

you have outlined the nature of the planets being either benefic of malefic really well here, to the point it is very easy to understand..

i am curious... does the BPHS offer any charts? the software you are using may direct our imagination to perceive this a certain way.. the astrologers at the time might have imagined it differently? i suppose i am falling back on my original comment you quote at the top of your post and which you don't believe is correct... falling an alternative view, perhaps we have been stalemated here??

i continue to believe the flaw in the method is using 3 different charts, as opposed to one for the primary dasa... but i can accept i am wrong on this too.. i am not sure of the flaw that you are seeing..

i do believe if the system is unable to be verified in hindsight, it is no good with foresight!

i have looked at some alternative approaches to verifying the 3rd marriage... the solar return for hamish 1999 seems to suggest the 3rd marriage the best... the tertiary progressions also have some data that lend support... there is really not much in the solar arc directions...

maybe we have to keep an open mind to the idea we don't really understand this method that was being used in the past?

Stalemate? Not quite yet. All I was presenting was my conclusions using the method presented in ch 74 of BPHS that I found seriously wanting.

Does that mean that Sudarshan Chakra is not a valid concept? Not necessarily. As you point out we may not know how this system was used in the past. BPHS aside from its shadowy scholarly provenance has some serious flaws internally as an astrological text. Again, all I was testing was the approach to Sudarshan given in BPHS to see if it had a sound framework for prediction that could be built upon. In India SC is used but its transmission has been oral, contained, guarded and controlled within families of practicing astrologers over generations.

Having settled at least to my satisfaction the deficiencies of the approach in BPHS, I feel much freer now to try other approaches to Sudarshan and the SC dasha.
Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or as Treebeard in LOTR says, Don't be hasty.

There are no chart examples given within the BPHS text though in chapter 74 of his translation and commentary of BPHS Santhanam gives an example chart and illustration of Sudarshan Chakra providing detailed astronomical data of the planets and houses and of course the Vargas. In doing a careful time search just within signs in both the tropical and sidereal*, there is no such astronomical coincidence of his given values in recorded history. Perhaps it is a typographical error but it is more likely a made-up teaching chart because Santhanam does not provide any birth data. Unlike the rest of the edition when a sample chart is presented. This is interesting he would use a teaching chart rather than an actual one as he does extensively elsewhere. I find this odd.

The sample chart only goes over the house placement of the planets within the Sudarshan chakra as a natal reading, Santhanam does not give an example of the predictive method of SC dasha.

*Santhanam mentions using Lahiri ayanamsa in the preface and in the body of the text, sampling of some of the charts in the book accuracy is within a few arc minutes. So reliability seems good.

I just scanned this topic quickly, and noted this statement:

Hamish's 3rd Marriage
Hamish’s third marriage on 12/31/1999 the main period of SC house 11, and sub of SC 12th was running. The period and sub-period ran from 12/4/1999 to 1/3/2000.

S.P. Khullar (and perhaps K.S. Krishnamuti as well) places the first marriage in the 7th house, the 2nd marriage in 9th, and the third marriage in 11th. Also the 11th can relate to any marriage as it is trine the 7th and supports the 7th. Western horary may do the same. I'm not sure.

Hi James: just a note on this...

Therese Hamilton wrote: S.P. Khullar (and perhaps K.S. Krishnamuti as well) places the first marriage in the 7th house, the 2nd marriage in 9th, and the third marriage in 11th. Also the 11th can relate to any marriage as it is trine the 7th and supports the 7th. Western horary may do the same. I'm not sure.

Good points by Therese but this was noted early in the discussion.
Talking of Hamish's first wedding...

Solar Saturn as ruler of Cp is also in the SC 4th you could argue is activated to being placed in the Lunar 11th and Solar 1st. 11th and 1st house activations are not uncommon in marriage events but its very tempting to keep going and knowing when to stop when we have three charts. This is why I think it's important to initially limit how far one can pursue an event with this chart, or you can make anything go.

According to Khullar in Therese's quote there should have been strong 7th house activations in Hamish's first wedding, there was not in the SC. As you suggest the next approach might be isolating the different charts and look for strong contacts there. Noted before too that in v.19-20 seems to imply that the natal houses have more influence.
Here's some food for thought...
Taking the natal ascendant as the activator for the SC dasha.
For Hamish's first marriage: 5th house of emotions SC dasha starts, natally this is Aries. Or the profection for the year is Aries.
The Solar 7th house of marriage is Aries.
Lunar 8th of the marital tie is Aries.

Still would like to see an obvious activation to that natal Ju in the 7th. Natally Mars is aspecting the 1st(Ju), 4th(Ju) and 5th(Ma) houses but no direct link to Ju itself that I can see using Mars' traditional aspects in the three charts, just houses/signs.

I still find the Vimshottari dasha of Rahu/Jupiter exceedingly more obvious and telling than the profection for this event.
For Hamish's 3rd marriage the Vimshottari dasha was just the inverse of his first, Jupiter/Rahu! Very interesting.
In D9 Ju rules the 7th and Ju and Ra are in mutual aspect from trinal houses.

AJ wrote:
Stalemate? Not quite yet. All I was presenting was my conclusions using the method presented in ch 74 of BPHS that I found seriously wanting. .

-------------
In India SC is used but its transmission has been oral, contained, guarded and controlled within families of practicing astrologers over generations.

Having settled at least to my satisfaction the deficiencies of the approach in BPHS, I feel much freer now to try other approaches to Sudarshan and the SC dasha.
Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or as Treebeard in LOTR says, Don't be hasty.

------------

.... in chapter 74 of his translation and commentary of BPHS Santhanam gives an example chart and illustration of Sudarshan Chakra providing detailed astronomical data of the planets and houses and of course the Vargas. In doing a careful time search just within signs in both the tropical and sidereal*, there is no such astronomical coincidence of his given values in recorded history. Perhaps it is a typographical error but it is more likely a made-up teaching chart because Santhanam does not provide any birth data. Unlike the rest of the edition when a sample chart is presented. This is interesting he would use a teaching chart rather than an actual one as he does extensively elsewhere. I find this odd.

The sample chart only goes over the house placement of the planets within the Sudarshan chakra as a natal reading, Santhanam does not give an example of the predictive method of SC dasha.

okay! thanks for continuing on with this exercise aj! it is hard to know what the astrololgers in india are doing if it is an oral tradition that is being passed on.. based on the chapter in BPHS, it seems like something is missing and as you point out, it is odd they provide a teaching example, as opposed to an actual example..

how would you like to proceed from here??

therese

thanks for pointing that out... turning the chart is something very popular in certain schools of astrology which seems to include much of indian astrology.. thanks for that..

Very sorry, I'm trying to finish up two projects at the moment, so can't get into this topic by careful reading. But I wanted to check something about marriage.

For Hamish's wedding on 11/3/1969...

James, is this November 3 or March 11? Here in the U.S. we always put the month first, but most of the rest of the world places the day first.

james_m wrote: how would you like to proceed from here??

Good question, I've looked at the events we have for Hamish using the natal houses as the SC dasha against the Lunar and Solar charts.
I'm not really sure this is leading anywhere noteworthy. Some of the house linkage by sign is intriguing but not convincing at least insofar comparing it to the Vimshottari dasha of the marriage events.

(From earlier)For Hamish's first marriage: 5th house of emotions SC dasha starts, natally this is Aries. Or the profection for the year is Aries.
The Solar 7th house of marriage is Aries.
Lunar 8th of the marital tie is Aries.

Hamish's 3rd marriage SC dasha is 11th or Libra, hence Venus. Venus is the natural significator for marriage and is in the natal 10th. (Overlooking Venus' weakness for now.)
In the Lunar chart Libra falls int he 2nd house of family.
In the Solar chart Libra falls in the 1st house of self.

The planet activations are of course the Sun and Saturn. I am just not seeing any strong themes to marriage with them by placement or rulerships, of course, other than Venus. In Marriage #1 there is no clear planetary activation at all to the 7th with this approach, just the active profection sign/house.

Next we could check the profections as calculated from the Solar and Lunar charts and see if this is any better/worse. I will email you the profections for those.

hi therese,

sorry for the lack of clarity - he got married on his 16th birthday - november 3rd 1969... i usually put day, month, and year in that order, but i see that i didn't do that here..

thanks aj,

for his wedding date -

ascendant profection 11/03/69 - leo

solar profection 11/03/1969 14:56 Aquarius

lunar profection is 11/03/1969 14:56 Capricorn

of the 3 - saturn is favourably situated in the natal chart which fits with the solar and lunar dasa for this year... i say that as saturn is exalted in the sign libra...

if you take the secondary dasa applicable for the month of december, one gets ascendant profection is sun with sub dasa ruler mercury.. for solar profection -saturn with sub dasa - jupiter.. lunar profection saturn with sub dasa saturn as well... all in all - the focus on saturn is the cumulative emphasis as the dasa ruler for this period, doing a quick synthesis... how is saturn placed in the chart? it rules the 2nd and 3rd and is located in the 11th - using ascendant as the primary focal point..

frankly, i am inclined to go back to the persian approach which factors in the solar return heavily in combination with the profection lord for the year! however, i am very receptive to your input and happy to continue in this exercise as you see it too..

below are the solar returns for 1969 and 1999. of course there is a 30 year difference here and that equals a saturn return essentially.. what you see in both solar returns is an exchange between the sun-saturn opposition libra - aries where each are exalted in the others sign... also the ascendant in both signs has saturn as ruler, or exalted ruler of the ascendant..

1969



1999

James wrote:

thanks for pointing that out... turning the chart is something very popular in certain schools of astrology which seems to include much of indian astrology.. thanks for that..

Regarding the 11th house and marriage, I wasn't thinking of turning the chart, just using the houses in place.

I don't want to interrupt the flow of conversation here, but have some interesting charts regarding the two marriages of Hamish. (I don't think the date of the 2nd marriage was posted...?) If I have time I'll discuss these charts under a new topic on the sidereal forum, and leave this conversation to continue in the way it's going.