Thank you, AJ. I'm time challenged myself at the moment, so we can take it slow.

I just edited my initial post on Catherine to add the solar return chart for this year. I decided it could be helpful for anyone who wants to look at the chart.

thanks therese, for tossing this out here...

i like aj's response! it could very well be a health issue... i am not getting this off the profection chart though... but for clarity on the astro reasons for why i will say what i say, here is what i see...

health issue possibility -
solar arc saturn opp natal neptune... these are the health axis planets.
mars is on the same degree of saturn in the solar return...
chiron is on an approx 52 year cycle.. it returns to it's natal position here which happens to be in the conjunction with sun-saturn in pisces.. weakness in the feet perhaps? chiron has to do with health issues..
t saturn is 150 natal moon
t neptune is 150 moon as well..
yod formation with saturn-60 neptune and both 150 to natal moon..
solar return moon conjunction 12th house mars and opposite 6th house venus.
the natal nodal axis is conjunct this opposition across the 6/12 houses as well.
solar return uranus in the same spot - conjunct natal venus and opp mars.
profection uranus squares onto the natal mars-venus-nodal axis opposition as well..
profection neptune conjunct natal saturn as well - replicated in the transit data above..

what offsets all this some is profection jupiter conjunct the natal ascendant.
transit of jupiter to first.. any health issue discovered in this time frame would be a positive or lucky break for ones long term health as i see it..

alternative to the health issue possibility is death of mother.. i see this as less likely, but the some symbolism for this can be seen via my read of the various charts.. profection saturn conjunct natal moon is one of them.. i think of jupiter as a 9th house planet in catherines chart, but using other systems it would probably be construed as 8th house jupiter.. in the solar return, sag is 8th house, so jupiter profection lord rules the 8/11 houses.. profection node conjunct pluto.. transit of sun-opp pluto in the 2-8th house axis..profection mercury in gemini -ruler of natal 8th house.. transit saturn opposite this mercury... saturn - ruler of the 4th in solar return 8th.. nodal axis in transit chart and solar return chart in the same 2/8 axis.. t uranus 90 the jupiter-moon midpoint..

aside from the health issue possibility or possible death of mom, i am sure there are plenty more possibilities here too... thanks for giving us the opportunity to try to peer into the past with our astro blinders on therese, lolol!

James wrote:

...mars is on the same degree of saturn in the solar return...

Can you explain?? Thanks.

... profection saturn conjunct natal moon is one of them.. i think of jupiter as a 9th house planet in catherines chart, but using other systems it would probably be construed as 8th house jupiter....profection node conjunct pluto.. transit of sun-opp pluto in the 2-8th house axis..profection mercury in gemini -ruler of natal 8th house.

James, you're not using Abu Ma'shar's and the Varshasphal way to profect the chart, simply using the natal planets and houses and advancing the ascendant sign forward through the houses each year?? How are you calculating what you call the profection? I'm confused about how you are getting your "profection" planets.

You are using tropical techniques in your analysis, which is a bit confusing for me as I never used those techniques in my work, such as solar arc. Are you saying that Catherine's solar return for the year doesn't "speak" to you, so you are relying on tropical techniques you've used in the past?

For myself, I'm very interested in how others are reading the solar return chart and profections, especially if the Varshaphal has a way of progressing the solar return (in addition to the Muntha and how it is used).

hi therese,

it is like mixed martial arts, lol... mixed martial astrology!!

indeed the solar return data is central to my comments which you would see if you read them... sr - solar return... sa - solar arc...

Therese Hamilton wrote:James wrote:

...mars is on the same degree of saturn in the solar return...

Can you explain?? Thanks.

here is a biwheel with solar return on the inside and solar arc data on the outside.. mars solar return is on the same degree as saturn solar arc position... mars sr= saturn sa..



here is the profection chart to july 14th 2019... the way that abu ma'shar does it is just for the year - ie - takes catherines birth date - march 23rd and takes if off that...but i know that if one uses it for a year - like a yearly transit snapshot - what is the solar return - one can uses the transit data as well.. i want to see if the profection data for the approx time of catherines experience-event - has any direct relation here.. call it abu ma'shar step 2, if you will... these cats would have experimented too!



here is what it looks like with catherines natal chart on the inside and the profections to july 14 2019 on the outside..



now -hopefully you can see and understand the connections that i have commented on in my previous post!

O.K. thanks. Now I see you are using degrees of solar arc. But solar arc isn't the same as the computed solar return chart. It's a different calculation. Solar return charts are "real time" charts. Solar arc positions are symbolic progressions, at least that's what I vaguely recall from my early tropical studies. (Unless I'm missing something here?) I think it's important not to confuse the two types of calculation and to keep terms clear.

You haven't really explained what "solar arc" is.

James, I'm still not getting the mathematical process of what you call "profections." Can you step-by-step describe how you go from natal Moon at 24 Cancer 15 to your "profected" Moon at 3 Sag 35 for July 2019? Or are you beginning with the solar return Moon at 9 Libra 12? Abu Ma'shar and company never departed from using the signs and degrees of natal planets for profections. They just advanced the ascendant through houses for each year after birth. It seems that you are somehow using a western type direction, but calling it a profection as apparently Solar Fire does?

All solar return charts and their derivations such as monthly charts or enneads are real time charts based on current transits happening in the sky. (Now the Varshaphal has annual dasas which are something else yet again, and those are symbolic.)

therese,

i am combining data from one predictive tool with data from another predictive tool... this is what abu ma'shar is doing when he combines profection data with solar return data.. in fact - it is what you and all astrologers are doing... so, it really isn't much of a stretch to combine solar return data with solar arc data, but i am missing the gurus name from the deep past that did this so benjamin dykes can write a book on it!

solar arc directions.. it sounds like you know what they are! but for the pedantic, i will explain.. you move all the planets forward or backward ( converse in astro parlance) by approx 1 degree per year, or what is the solar arc of the sun over the course of the day the person is born - which will be different for each person... that is why they call them solar arcs... of course there are other similar approaches to this too.. hopefully this suffices..

solar return charts are transit charts for when the sun returns to the exact same degree/minute it is in the natal chart... profection charts work the same way, which is what i was saying, but perhaps another image will help you here.. the profection chart for catherine 2019 off her birth chart will give the same degree ascendant, moon and etc - for the approx date of march 23rd - regardless of the year... if you want it to be exact, you can work it out... this data keeps on going around in a circle 360- every 12 years.. so, of course it changes for july 14 as opposed to the birthdate for catherine march 23rd...

in fact - profections are a symbolic direction just like solar arc directions.. what is different is in profections the whole chart gets moved 30 degrees per year.. in solar arc directions the whole chart gets moved approx 1 degree per year.... this is astrology! using different techniques that are all symbolic in some way shape or form.. maybe transits aren't symbolic, but profections are definitely symbolic!



inner chart is the profection chart that exactly replicates the natal chart - pushed forward 5 signs - for the year 2019... outer chart is the profection chart moved part way forward to reflect july 14th date... if i keep on pushing it forward it will eventually get to the next exact 30 degree wedge to show the profections for 2020... moon at 3 sag is the result of profection moon at 24 scorpio on march 23rd - catherines 2019 birthdate - moving forward to 3 sag from 24 scorpio over the course of march 23rd to july 14th... same deal with the angle degrees for july 14th... ascendant has moved forward about 10 degrees or 1/3 rd of a year...

James wrote:

...solar arc directions.. it sounds like you know what they are! but for the pedantic, i will explain.. you move all the planets forward or backward ( converse in astro parlance) by approx 1 degree per year, or what is the solar arc of the sun over the course of the day the person is born - which will be different for each person... that is why they call them solar arcs...

Thanks for the definition, James. I wasn't sure of the exact amount that was progressed, and it's good to have the explanation here for anyone reading this thread. Solar arcs are used by tropical astrologers, but they aren't part of Indian astrology or the western sidereal system. Except for Vimshottari Dasas, I always favored real time transits.

What is unique about profections (which go way back to the earliest western astrology and were then adopted into India's Varshaphal), is that NO re-calculation is involved, only a shift in the angle of the natal chart. This is the technique I was interested in testing in conjunction with the solar return (a transit chart). These are the two techniques Abu Ma'shar combined (no symbolic progressions), but he also added "directions through the bounds" which has remained only in western classical astrology.

Issues may be related to child adoption / residence / relocation / mother / vehicles / property

Map, do you have time to elaborate a little on the techniques you used? No rush, we aren't in a hurry.

James, I've asked you two or three times, but you haven't explained exactly what the "Directed-profection (annual) x 30" calculation is that you're getting from Solar Fire. I can't figure it out except that it's not the traditional profected chart of advancing the ascendant through the natal houses. So can you help us out here?

It's good that you chose a July date for your progressed chart because the brings up an important point. Catherine's solar return still has six months to go, so the time frame (July to about the middle of September) is important. I wondered if AJ had looked at the Varshaphal monthly charts. I am using the ennead for the central 40 days of this period.

@Therese

I used straight Dasa-Bhukti. I have to wait and see if my conclusion is right.

therese,

i have explained, but clearly you have not understood!

annual profection charts are moving the wheel 30 degrees per year.... the very same concept abu ma'shar used and the very same concept that placidus replaced with secondary progressions.. but i think the part you don't seem to understand is that the 30 degrees per year, can be broken down into smaller time frames - a month, or a day for example... thus, one can move the chart in increments that are still a part of the larger year cycle of 30 degrees per year, but will result in a different positions... actually the chart moves 2 1/2 degrees per month and about 5 minutes per day as well..

solar fire generates the chart... i understand how it is arrived at and have explained it to the best of my ability... cheers james

Therese Hamilton wrote:James, I've asked you two or three times, but you haven't explained exactly what the "Directed-profection (annual) x 30" calculation is that you're getting from Solar Fire. I can't figure it out except that it's not the traditional profected chart of advancing the ascendant through the natal houses. So can you help us out here?