aj,

the data in what is now the blue box was of primary directions for the first 25 years of her life... however, the relevant pds for this time frame 1985, are listed in that post too... i share them again here -

james_m wrote: fwiw, here is the data for for late 1984, and into 1985..

sextile of saturn direct to moon november 17 1984
trine of jupiter direct to mercury march 18 1985
sextile of saturn direct to jupiter june 3 1985

therese,

Therese Hamilton wrote: I've been trying to figure out when profections went from the simple advancement of one natal sign per year to adding increments for shorter time periods. This seems to be definitely a western innovation.

if you get round to reading the ben dykes book on abu ma'shar which i think you said you bought - you will see that abu ma'shar was using smaller increments for shorter time periods... is he a western innovator??

Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ wrote:

As far as how to perceive or use profection I think it is up to the practitioner to decide. Isn't that the purpose of the topic? If anyone wants to use subs, transits or whatever it's okay by me. It's not my thread.

These topic threads can be started by anyone, and anyone can join in the discussion. The threads don't belong to anyone in particular. They're only forums for discussion, learning and sharing.

Yes, I principally agree with you Therese but maybe where we part ways is I do think that contributors should honor the main gist of a topic and there should always be some respect towards the originator of a topic and their intent. It seems only courteous, especially when there is not much in the way of moderation to sort such things out. It's hard enough to keep from burrowing new rabbit holes otherwise. Most derailed threads die rather quickly IMO before achieving anything close to there first intention. It's inevitable that some side paths like this one happen. So long as they are short and don't interrupt the main flow, it's not a problem.

If its much off topic, then a new one should be started. We are at that juncture now. If you wish to pursue this stream of thought then you should start a new one, but I have said my piece.
Be Well.

I would like to keep this topic on protections and the solar return chart which is what I'm working on now.

Komilla's Natal and Navamsa Charts



At first this natal chart bothered me somewhat because for interpretation I depend on planets near equal house cusps, and Komilla’s chart doesn’t have any in those positions. So does this point to an ordinary life, nothing really standing out? I’m not sure. Also an ascendant at 25 degrees produces a house dilemma: whole sign houses or equal cusps at house centers?

So to move on to the profection for her 22nd year. The profection is in Capricorn, the natal 11th house which is supposed to be beneficial. It’s also supposed to be good if the profection lord joins the profection sign which happens in this case as natal Saturn is in Capricorn. So from the profection I would eliminate the death of the mother.

A Capricorn profection places natal Rahu in Cancer in the 7th and natal Moon in the 10th; transiting profection or Muntha lord exalted Saturn is in the degree of natal Moon. So the Capricorn profection emphasizes houses 7 (marriage or partnership) and 10th (change in status due to exalted Saturn on profected 7th lord Moon). (I haven’t studied profections enough to know if this is a common way of looking at natal houses from the profected ascendant.)

Komilla's Solar Return Chart



Looking at the solar return chart alone from different angles (without the natal bi-wheel), I can honestly see why various astrologers could chose any one of the three options. So how to choose a correct event among the choices?

If we first look at the most angular planets, there are the nodes crossing the asc/desc axis with transiting Mercury at the top of the chart in Leo in the same degree as the nodes. This is the dominant angular configuration of the annual chart. The nodes have to do with relationships, and Mercury is the lord of natal 7th of marriage.

Rahu stands alone in the SR 7th. It’s in the Sun’s star in the 10th (elevation in status) and in Venus sub. Venus is SR 7th lord and in SR 11th, (a marriage support house) conjunct Mercury, natal 7th lord in natal 7th.

Transiting exalted Saturn is in the degree of natal Moon, both in Rahu’s star which goes back to SR Rahu in 7th.

Natal Jupiter in SR 4th is in Rahu’s star (in SR 7th) and Mercury (natal 7th lord) sub. If the 4th rules the mother, this position of Jupiter would be fortunate for her rather than pointing to her death.

Looking at Komilla’s 1984 solar return this way, marriage could be predicted.

Other points:
The SR Moon and Jupiter are transiting in Ketu’s star in the 2nd SR house. This could represent a gain in earning ability OR an increase in family (2nd house) due to marriage. Ketu’s star: Ketu is in natal 11th, gain AND the 11th is also a support house for marriage. SR Ketu is in the SR 1st, a house very significant for Komilla in a personal way.

Transiting exalted Saturn is in the degree of natal Moon, in either the 12th or 1st SR house depending on the house system used. These are in Rahu’s star, Rahu being in the SR 7th. But if Saturn and the natal Moon are considered to be in the 12th house, that could point to foreign residence. Some texts place foreign travel in the 7th as well as the 12th. One of Rahu's meanings also relates to foreign countries.

Ketu on the SR ascendant is in Saturn’s star, placing Saturn either in the 1st or 12th.

If we take the ascendant star, 3 degrees of Scorpio is in Jupiter star (SR Jupiter in 2nd) and Rahu sub (SR Rahu in 7th).

So 11th is either gain, a gift or a support house for marriage.

2nd house is either increase in family or increased earning ability.

The 10th house (location of Rahu’s star lord Sun) can point to increased status either through marriage or a new employment position. Rahu’s sub lord Venus is in SR 11th, again profit or gain of some sort or a support marriage house.

Natal 5th lord in the 8th would not be good for children, but as 5th lord might be helpful in other ways.

I haven't noticed something like this before, but Komilla's navamsa Rahu and Venus are on her 1984 SR ascendant in Scorpio, and navamsa Ketu and Mercury are on the SR 7th cusp conjunct SR Rahu in Taurus (Mercury being 7th lord).

therese, the problem with the older solar fire version you are using is although it puts the birth chart in the inner wheel with solar return on the outer wheel, it puts all of the planets in the solar return houses, not the birth chart houses... point of fact is the birth chart is the most important chart for consideration.. everything else stems from it! if you are putting birth chart planets in the solar return chart- as the software does for you in your post immediately above this one - it is really secondary to putting the solar return planets in the place of how they land in the natal chart...

that is how i see it and how ben dykes emphasizes it according to his latest book which i keep on mentioning... i thought this way beforehand, but i bears repeating again here... we are all struggling with creating a hierarchy for how these charts are to be read.. i continue to want to have this discussion and your biwheel brings it up again which is why i say what i do.. i am not saying looking at it both ways isn't useful, only that i believe the emphasis needs to be on the natal chart before the solar return chart... perhaps this will solicit more of a conservation on this..



regarding monthly solar returns and profections for june 1985 off komillas natal chart - here they are for consideration...

first the monthly solar return..

AJ wrote: Here are the subs for the main Capricorn profection for Kamala if anyone needs them.
09/04/1984 Ca
10/04/1984 Aq
11/04/1984 Pi
12/04/1984 Ar
01/04/1985 Ta
02/04/1985 Ge
03/04/1985 Ca
04/04/1985 Le
05/04/1985 Vi
06/04/1985 Li
07/04/1985 Sc
08/04/1985 Sa

as relates to the above data - june profection has virgo rising - emphasizing the 7th house and the natal planet virgo in komillas chart which rules the 4th and 7th...

my software is unable to generate monthly profections.. however, i am sharing the data for june 4th 1985 which coincides with the time of the solar return monthly chart for when this would be in effect for...

in looking at this chart, try to imagine virgo rising in this chart below, which is what the monthly profection chart would emphasize.. until solar fire develops a newer version on profection charts for months - this is as best it can be seen...

James wrote:

Therese, the problem with the older solar fire version you are using is although it puts the birth chart in the inner wheel with solar return on the outer wheel, it puts all of the planets in the solar return houses, not the birth chart houses.

This is correct, and the way western sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school have decided is the valid way to read solar return charts. The chart style I use was designed by sidereal astrologer Matthew Quellas (now deceased). Sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school believe that the solar return to natal chart has to be viewed this way. There are books devoted to reading return charts using this method, both solar and lunar returns. I believe this was an innovation of the Fagan school. At any rate it can be tested. The most popular book using this system is James Eshelman's Interpreting Solar Returns (Astro Analytics Publications, 1979).

I will have to find time to spend with Ben Dykes' book [Persian Nativities IV: Abu Ma'shar On the Revolutions of the Year, Cazimi Press 2019] before any further discussion on points you have mentioned. But also I've been considering leaving Skyscript for a number of reasons, so may let this book go into the background for awhile.

Abu Ma'shar lived at an interesting time when Persian astrology was transitioning from the sidereal to a fully tropical zodiac. I think I remember Ben Dykes mentioning in his introduction that Abu Ma'shar was experimenting in different ways, and seemed not to be sure about how to use some of his techniques. So, yes, he was an innovator at a time of astrological change among Persian astrologers.

Edit:
I should add that the reason sidereal astrologers draw the chart with the solar return angles is that the four angles of the SR chart are of supreme importance. Whatever natal planets all near the angles or aspect them closely will materialize during the year.

So if quadrant cusps are used in the solar return chart, these will be difficult to see in the natal chart. In general today's sidereal astrologers (of the Fagan school) don't use houses or minimize their importance. They pay attention to planets on the SR angles and (some astrologers) also note planets that make close aspects to the SR angles and very close SR transits to natal planets.

Therese Hamilton wrote:I've been considering leaving Skyscript for a number of reasons,

I am considering leaving also. Partly due to my firewall having incompatibilities with older sites like this one. My last post took 3 tries. But there is also talk by the moderators wishing Deb to shut down the forum and I am also uncomfortable at the recent boldly stated jaded if not a contemptible attitude towards newer members.

In fact, as I think about it this will be my last post.

To wrap up the blind analysis... Komilla was married.
The event happened during the main period of Saturn and in the sub-period of Mercury.
Saturn in the 11th house in its own sign and is also lord of the 12th house. Saturn rules the D9 ascendant.
Mercury is placed in its own sign in the seventh house. Mercury is exactly aspected by Mars from the fourth house and by Ketu from the 11th. Mars rules the 2nd house of family, spouse and is in the 4th house of family.

There are other very interesting features in her chart and life I wanted to present, but thanks to everyone for the discussions.
Adieu and be well.

AJ wrote:

To wrap up the blind analysis... Komilla was married.

This is a great relief to me because I was testing the western sidereal way of interpreting return charts (using solar return cusps and houses) as well as the placement of star lords of planets, and these pointed to marriage.

There were multiple ways that 7th lord Mercury was highlighted, the most interesting being natal D9 Mercury on the SR 7th cusp. (This was a new discovery, and natal D9 Venus and Rahu were also on the SR ascendant. So the D9 Mercury/Ketu opposite Venus/Rahu was highlighted by this return chart and repeated by SR transits.)

Do you have the date of marriage? Both June ennead charts looked interesting, so I decided not to use the ennead to judge the SR. Of course there is always a lot of fuss around the time of a marriage, and this would be reflected in transits.

I am considering leaving also. Partly due to my firewall having incompatibilities with older sites like this one. My last post took 3 tries.

I would often get notices of a post, but then there would be a message that the post didn't exist. These notices no doubt happened after one of your failed posts. It looks like Skyscript itself may be in jeopardy, so I guess we wait to see what happens.

AJ wrote:

To wrap up the blind analysis... Komilla was married.
The event happened during the main period of Saturn and in the sub-period of Mercury.
Saturn in the 11th house in its own sign and is also lord of the 12th house. Saturn rules the D9 ascendant.

It's interesting here that the 11th house profected position of Saturn (with Ketu) overshadowed the fact that both Saturn and Ketu are generally malefics, and that they are both in the Moon's star in Komilla's 8th house. However, the Moon is lord of the benefic 5th house, and 18 degrees of Libra is a degree I've seen to be highly beneficial. Several fixed stars are in that degree. (I had overlooked the fact that Saturn rules the D9 ascendant.)

Mercury is placed in its own sign in the seventh house. Mercury is exactly aspected by Mars from the fourth house and by Ketu from the 11th. Mars rules the 2nd house of family, spouse and is in the 4th house of family.

Mars is also the antara lord, so it's significant that it gives a full aspect to the 7th lord. So we have all three lords in the natal chart operating together: Saturn (dasa lord) with Ketu in the 11th (a support marriage house) both in trine to 7th lord Mercury (bhukti lord) in the 7th, and Mars (antara lord) also aspecting Mercury. It seems so clear in retrospect using only the natal chart and the dasa/bhukti/antara lords!!

Then if we add the solar return chart: Mercury is the strongest (most angular) natal planet in the SR chart in the degree of the nodes which cross the asc/desc cusps.

Jupiter conjoins the Moon in Ketu's star and using Krishnamurti's techniques, transits in Ketu's star bring the results of natal Ketu which is in the 11th natal house with dasa lord Saturn and D9 Ascendant lord, both trine to 7th lord Mercury in the 7th.

So aside from the 11th house Saturn Profection, there are several parts of the solar return chart that indicate this would be a good year, very possibly pointing to marriage:

(1) Moon conjunct Jupiter in its own sign of Sagittarius (in SR 2nd house of family.)

(2) Natal Jupiter angular in the 4th SR house (in Rahu's star, Rahu being in the SR 7th.

(3) The crown of the SR chart, however, is natal 7th lord Mercury at the top of the chart in partile formation with the nodes on the Asc/Desc axis.

(4) Angular Rahu's sign dispositor and sub lord is Venus which conjoins natal Mercury in the SR 11th/natal 7th. (Rahu is said to bring both its sign and star lords into manifestation.)

For Komilla's chart, we didn't need to go beyond the simple advanced Profection by natal house, solar return and natal charts.

There are other very interesting features in her chart and life I wanted to present, but thanks to everyone for the discussions.

Sometimes, AJ, I feel you've been "on my case." But if Skyscript continues, perhaps you'll change your mind about leaving. I would like to know about Komilla's life, and even timed events to check additional SR charts. But it does seem that your firewall problems will have to be fixed somehow.

first off - thanks aj for running this exercise.... it is indeed challenging to come up with the answer! i believe one of the many reasons for this is the number of techniques available to choose from, some of which may work some of the time, but not all the time... with this in mind, let me comment on my own conclusion here..

the profection data seemed essentially useless...and the importance of the moving profection data to highlight jupiter in aquarius - seems to have just thrown me off into 12th house matters, more then anything else.. however, in fairness to profection data - capricorn as the ascendant lord for the year would put the libra planets on the 10th house cusp.. there is some mutual reception between both saturn and venus both placed in dignity- saturn in cap and venus in libra.. but overall, saturn in komillas chart is in the 11th and i don't generally associate the 11th with marriage...

the close conjunction of saturn in the solar return to moon in the natal chart would ordinarily imply a issue of concern that i wouldn't associate with marriage, but more like death of the mom as stefan mostly highlighted...however maybe this is altered significantly due the dignity of saturn and that the moon rules the 5th... just speculating..

the primary direction of jupiter to mercury would imply this given jupiter and mercury rule the ascendant axis, but for some reason i got caught up in the sign positions, as opposed to the house position of mercury and thought it was work related... jupiter in aquarius is a 12th house planet and ruler of the ascendant.. that doesn't seem to fit..

perhaps the best read on this is exactly as therese highlighted in the post below using the solar return as the primary chart and reading off of it as she learned and highlights from the fagen school below... thank you therese!!

i have more to say, but will leave it at this for now... thanks everyone!

Therese Hamilton wrote:James wrote:

Therese, the problem with the older solar fire version you are using is although it puts the birth chart in the inner wheel with solar return on the outer wheel, it puts all of the planets in the solar return houses, not the birth chart houses.

This is correct, and the way western sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school have decided is the valid way to read solar return charts. The chart style I use was designed by sidereal astrologer Matthew Quellas (now deceased). Sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school believe that the solar return to natal chart has to be viewed this way. There are books devoted to reading return charts using this method, both solar and lunar returns. I believe this was an innovation of the Fagan school. At any rate it can be tested. The most popular book using this system is James Eshelman's Interpreting Solar Returns (Astro Analytics Publications, 1979).

I will have to find time to spend with Ben Dykes' book [Persian Nativities IV: Abu Ma'shar On the Revolutions of the Year, Cazimi Press 2019] before any further discussion on points you have mentioned. But also I've been considering leaving Skyscript for a number of reasons, so may let this book go into the background for awhile.

Abu Ma'shar lived at an interesting time when Persian astrology was transitioning from the sidereal to a fully tropical zodiac. I think I remember Ben Dykes mentioning in his introduction that Abu Ma'shar was experimenting in different ways, and seemed not to be sure about how to use some of his techniques. So, yes, he was an innovator at a time of astrological change among Persian astrologers.

Edit:
I should add that the reason sidereal astrologers draw the chart with the solar return angles is that the four angles of the SR chart are of supreme importance. Whatever natal planets all near the angles or aspect them closely will materialize during the year.

So if quadrant cusps are used in the solar return chart, these will be difficult to see in the natal chart. In general today's sidereal astrologers (of the Fagan school) don't use houses or minimize their importance. They pay attention to planets on the SR angles and (some astrologers) also note planets that make close aspects to the SR angles and very close SR transits to natal planets.

Thank you, James, for summarizing your thoughts on Komilla’s chart.

James wrote:

...it is indeed challenging to come up with the answer! i believe one of the many reasons for this is the number of techniques available to choose from,

This is the problem with astrology in general, and why research should be a primary focus of astrologers. This is why working with Komilla’s chart has been a good research project.

The profection data seemed essentially useless...and the importance of the moving profection data to highlight jupiter in aquarius - seems to have just thrown me off into 12th house matters...

This is a very important statement. You have said here that the moving profection data threw you off into 12th house matters. The key word here is moving. The original Hellenistic profection was fixed, keeping the natal signs and degrees intact and simply advancing the ascendant through the houses. I don’t know the origin of moving (re-computing natal planetary signs and degrees) profections as I haven’t had time to further study Abu Ma’shar. (So this is on my study list.)

however, in fairness to profection data - capricorn as the ascendant lord for the year [in 11th natal house] would put the libra planets on the 10th house cusp..

Here you have returned to the original Hellenistic fixed profection method, which in this case was helpful in choosing the correct option for Komilla.

...there is some mutual reception between both saturn and venus both placed in dignity- saturn in cap and venus in libra..

This mutual reception is very important and something I failed to notice myself!

...but overall, saturn in Komillas chart is in the 11th and i don't generally associate the 11th with marriage...

This is something I learned from studying K.S. Krishnamurti and S.P. Khullar. A principle of these systems is that events don’t belong only to one house. Each event has supporting houses. So for marriage the 7th is the primary house and the 2nd (increase in family) and 11th (fulfillment of desires?) are support houses. (I was married in the sub period of the Sun in my 11th house in Libra, Sun being lord of 9th.)

the close conjunction of saturn in the solar return to moon in the natal chart would ordinarily imply a issue of concern that i wouldn't associate with marriage, but more like death of the mom as stefan mostly highlighted...however maybe this is altered significantly due the dignity of saturn and that the moon rules the 5th... just speculating..

It does seem that the dignity of Saturn and Moon as lord of 5th overshadowed natal Moon in 8th. But also, there is another possibility: As an Indian girl in an earlier age (1985), Komilla most likely didn’t have any sexual relationship with her husband prior to marriage. If the 8th rules the genital area of the body, then Komilla's first sexual experience after marriage would indeed point to the 8th house, and would be very significant for Komilla. (This 8th house does show up strongly in what is probably the relevant ennead chart. Not knowing what to do with this emphasis, I didn’t use the ennead for my prediction. I may post this chart under the ennead topic.)

perhaps the best read on this is exactly as therese highlighted in the post below using the solar return as the primary chart and reading off of it as she learned and highlights from the fagen school below... thank you therese!!

I see this as a victory for all of us because we learned something important about interpreting the solar return chart. Now to further test the chart using Fagan school principles. This is why I was hoping that AJ would post other events in Komilla’s life...not necessarily as a challenge, but just telling us the events themselves and their timing so we could study the relevant charts.

Since software programs don’t include this printing option (SR ascendant and planets on the outer wheel, natal chart on the inner wheel), the best way to view the chart is to print a large solar return chart and manually enter the natal ascendant and planets toward the center of the wheel...the OLD way we used to hand draw charts, which actually can be very helpful in tuning into a chart. We lose this intuitive connection with software generated charts.

Just now checking Ben Dykes' Introduction to Abu Ma'shar's On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities (The Cazimi Press, 1919) there is no mention of the "moving" method of profections, only the "fixed" rotation of the ascendant (or other bodies) through natal houses. I haven't yet had time to read through the main text of the book on Profections (Book II). The use of Time Lords through the bounds uses another progressed method, but I haven't had time to read that part of the text. Time Lords is another topic entirely.

therese,

are monthy profections a moving method of profections to you? i am very curious.. thanks.. surely you can see how moving the annual profection to include monthly profections is indeed a moving system... but, i would prefer to talk about something else that we can agree upon, since you are not willing to concede what is both in the book and what i am extrapolating in the idea of this data moving forward not only an an annual, or monthly basis - as outlined in the book, but also on a daily basis.. lets just agree to disagree here.. thanks..