Hello Forum,

We are not going through easy times. Hope you and all your loved ones are fine.

I need a 2nd opinion for my below chart .

Back ground is as below:

I started going to a cafe in my neighbourhood autumn 2019. I met with people and we became friends with them by time. There was this man there, mostly silent, but quite social on the other hand, knows everybody, but rarely speaking to me at all.

There was party one night there in Nov. We were having drinks, dancing etc. Still, he was hardly speaking to me. I started calling him name and catching his attention by saying “Hey cheers ! Cheers ! “ . We ended up with dancing a little bit. Then he would held my hand tightly crossing fingers in the middle of everyone. That was all. So, I was the initiator as signified by the Moon in the 11th.

After that , nothing happened. We only spoke couple of times for business. I did not see him for 2 months at all.

Then this virus thing... Again I did not meet him for another 3 months. When we met we were both a little bit distanced. Not so warm, not much chat. One day he made a joke, I realised he put me on marble. I was such at a high place for him, really.

End May, surprisingly he said he would me take me out for dinner. We have not gone out yet. And at the party on the 5th. June. he asked me for a dance. We had a beautiful dance. He offered to deliver me home. On the way, I was not expecting at all, but he held my hand and kissed me. And yes, he was heavily drunk and says he remembers what he did. This last 1 week I find him quite unpredictable, either so interested in me ot not at all. Since I behave him the way he behaves me, I have become unpredictable, too. When I showed him no attention, he found me cold.

We were both at the cafe yesterday night. He was distanced again, I chased him. But I just could not stand any further this unclearity , one day compliments , other day cold. I gave him a ring last night , 12th.June. I said I was so upset with him being so interested one time, and not at all another time and that we needed to adjust this communication. He said he was just too tired and had an argument with a customer and that this was he was silent and that we wld. Speak tomorrow afternoon ( which is today ).

He did not contact me today to meet . We just met at the cafe. He did not come to speak to me. Rather he sat alone for 1-2 hours and by the time I was leaving, I saw him he joined some young women - I know some of them - having his drink. So kind he was (!), he wished me good night personally !

I texted him again when I was back home, saying he was weird and that I did not understand what kind of man he was. He said the ambience was not approite to speak !

This is how I ended up in the forum long after casting the chart.

Now the chart:



I cast the chart on the 9th. December 2019.

Question is “ Will we have a long term relation with him ? “

I find interesting the way I framed the question after couple of years studying horary. How was I ‘ sure’ that there would be a relationship between him and myself. And it is a ‘ Will we ‘ question, not ‘ Shall I ‘. It seems I am not strong enough to take any responsibility, but rather would like leave to destiny.

The beautiful trine between the Moon and Saturn at first galance is very promising. Moon is the strogest planet in the chart - in her exaltation, and in a strong house - even it is not in a cardinal house- being able to get whatever she desires. We would expect applied to planet to be in good condition so that it can recive the applying planet . Saturn is able to recieve the Moon by being essentially and accidentally dignified. As both planets are essantially and accidentally dignified , they seem to able to establish a relation. Can we also consider Saturn receives Moon by house rulership as Saturn is the natural ruler of the 11th. ?

If any relationship develops, Saturn seems to be okay - receiving the Moon from his night triplicity and by term. But, Saturn is in Moon’s detriment, not to expect much from Saturn - even the normal emotional responses any partner would provide.

I want to be in a relationship which we can build a life time strong bonds which I can depend on and worths the love, effort and the time I invest in. I think this is why I am signified by Moon in Taurus. The other reason my being signified with the quickest planet - by Moon - is that I want to leave quickly any interaction - actually before even getting involved in it at all - if I sense I will not get what I want and that will break my heart.

And Saturn ... He is already the greatest malefic. I do not think being dignified helps him. Although, Saturn is a heavy planet, it is in a cardinal sign and in a cardinal house... Plus, as Tanit commented in one of the threads , since Capricorn is related to winter, being the most unpredictable season, how can I depend on him ? Also in a night chart, it would make him more heartless as Tanit said.

I asked about the longevity of this relationship. God knows whenever I ask this question, getting married is in my mind, but never frame the question this way. May be because I am afraid of a no. There does not seem much hope here for longevity. This chart is dancing. 1st-7th axis is in the cardinal signs. 4th.-10th. Axis is in mutable signs. Ever disolving Pisces on the MC. - future of the relationship - , Neptune in tight counjunct with MC., There is unclarity about the future of this relationship. Or simply it is to say that it will already disolve. Moon, Saturn and Venus - even Mars all aspect Neptune. Neither party is clear about the future.

Sun is in its night triplicity, but in a malefic house... It is as if he has the passion and the desire for a relationship, but he is too tired and too weak to do the chasing, and to establish a relationship. He seems he is very confused ( Sun trine Neptune ) with the idea of having a relationship or permanence of it .

Other thing is that Mars ruling the 11th. I see Mars as the friendship which I am not interested at all. I just want to carry the interaction between us to a committed relationship - Moon trines Venus after aspecting Mars. Both Moon and Venus are still under the influence of Mars, even the aspect is past. Mars sitting in the fixed 5th. House of flirtation and sex and yet in Scorpio, plus Mars still applies to Saturn. I assume that there will be a long period of time we will be flirting, may be in a heavily sexsual tone, full of power games and manipulation. It is good that Mars - Venus/ Saturn aspect is a weak one - a sextile - and Saturn also does not look like involving this play too long - Mars as Saturn’ s fall.

But I am highly suspicious that Mars may signify that young woman in the cafe. Despite the fact that she looks very friendly to everyone and calls elder men ( which would be around my age ) and L7 “brother???, I feel she wants to have all the attention from every men around him and that she can not stand any other women around those men. She is dark in nature and fat, not attractive at all, but I think she is too manipulative. She would not let me and L7 speak alone. She jumps into the conversations. We were together with her all last night, and she did not tell me at all, but she and L7 were back from massage today ))She did not say they would go.

And Venus... Moon is disposed by Venus. And Moon last aspected Venus. Is this giving Moon’s her power to Venus to handle this issue i.e. Pushing Dignity . Am I right ? Also, I see Venus my other co-significator since it was Venus that was last aspected by Moon . Is this Venus strong enough for a satisfying outcome. ? It is only in her night triplicity, and accidentally dignified. She is pregrine in Capricorn. Venus ruled by Saturn. Venus conjuncts Saturn. So this is also pushing dignity. Right ? And it will be strong this time, because Saturn is strong to accept ‘ pushing dignity ‘ by being in its own house. It is Venus to first aspect Saturn before Venus. So, Mars will be frusturated by Venus’ application, and Mars will lose his effect over Saturn . Am I right ? If not, even though the Mars is still in aspect with Saturn, will Venus soften Mars’ harshness ? I think Venus is too weak to influence Saturn in a positive way and to clean his malefic affect because she is too small. Jupiter would be able to do so. Even Jupiter in it is fall or not in good condition, Jupiter will reduce the malevence of Saturn Lilly says. But no hope here as Venus has already lost light of Jupiter to carry it to Saturn.

I also want to ask about besigement. When Saturn is the main significator, can we still say any planet between Mars and Saturn is still beiseged ? If yes, since Moon aspected Venus after both Venus and Moon aspected Mars, did they get rid of beisegement ?

And the nodes...

Reading tens of times what Tanit told me in my previous thread, I tought about nodes so long. I conclude nodes in relation charts in the 1st/ 7th axis as our past/ childhood travmas and expreinces , which we can not get rid of - at least easily - those we bring into our relationships. Tanit shed a beautiful light onto me in that area. I now understand my south node cancer conjucting Saturn and my true node in Capricorn. I have to admit the fact that I emotionally depend on others and this causes ups/ down in me which I mainly live in my romantic relationships. I do not find easy keeping my emotions stable. Now that I am much more clearer about this issue, I am working hard to leave this personality trait behind me. And this man has Moon - Saturn opposition in his 6th.-12th. in his natal. My natal Moon makes a tight conjunction to his Moon so that I am triggering his Moon-Saturn apposition. So, you see - all childhood issues are here in this chart. So, I conclude horary charts does not only reveal the future, but also the physce behind our actions. And Moon is the great mirror signifiying me - this is why I behave according to Saturn.

Now, that the nodes are on the 6th. And 12th. Axis , Does this signify I am/ we are leaving those ill patterns behind us OR do we consider this nodes in the 1st and in the 7th. By 5 degree rule ? OR are they holding the AC/ DC - How much orb do you give in your practise to nodes ?
OR since Moon and Saturn, are the dispositors of the Nodes, are the effects signified by the Nodes permanent ?

Saturn, not only a heavy planet, also in his house, shows clearly the power games I may go through, plus Saturn conjunting Pluto - may be some strong manipulation and jealusy issues etc.

Moon also trines Pluto. I have strong Pluto and Pluto indications in my natal. So, no surprise finding Pluto here. And he has pluto square mars from 5th to 8th.

Looking at this chart, I am not quite sure if we could benefit the positive sides of Pluto...transforming part.

Strangely, his natal Pluto makes a very tight conjunct to my AC, less than 0.50 and also his 8th. Ruler conjuncts my AC .

The eclipse on the 5th. June ( the day he kissed me ) fall onto the Sun in this chart. He has his natal Mars in the 8th. in Sag almost exact degree with the horary Sun.Horary Moon opposes my natal Venus less than 1 degree. All these be meaningless, but I find them surprising.

Having said all these...

I just can not make sure this chart suggests a relationship.

And what do you think about its longevity if there is one ? Do you think this chart shows just some period of this relationship ( if ever happens ) - say the begining phase of it - may be this amount time etc. , or it has already destined to be disolved.

And Moon, as the strongest planet in the chart, plus in a fixed sign and in a fixed house, do you think She will be able to provide longevity for this relation ?

As I said I am inclined to walk away easily just to protect myself. But if I always behave this way , there is risk of loosing a relationship which may end up with marriage - I do not mean this one specifically. There are tones of negatives in this chart already, but what if they are temporarly and what if he is the one... I do not want to leave my decicions solely on horary charts, composite and synastries, but I can not throw myself into fire if there is no promise at all.

This is why I need your help/ oponions for this chart.

Thanks so much in advance.

Hello Breeze,
Thank you for the follow up after a few months.
No wonder you asked “ Will we have a long term relation with him ? “ with SaturnL7 in the 7th... And I really read it as 'Will WE have" instead of 'Will I have" as if you were doing a subconscious deliberate mistake.

But above that, I am questioning the question itself. After all, Saturn in the 7th going to conjunct Pluto and asking a question about a relationship. And Time. And the Moon Void of Course.

Aphorisms cocktail concerning Venus L11, L Moon and L4 (end of the matter) conjunct Saturn 7th.

Lilly says to "look at Saturn in all matters because of its excess of cold and dry."
Ibn Ezra: "..Venus nullifies the harm of Mars but cannot modify the nature of Saturn."
Hieronymus Cardamus: "When the Moon, in a nocturnal genesis, transfers its rays from Mars to Saturn, many annoyances will happen to the native, mainly caused by women."
Abu Ma'sar: "When Venus is with Saturn, she is similar to a young woman with a good figure who remains in the company of an old and impotent man. She feels distressed for this reason and the way she leads her life seems unbearable." ... but you can gain a social status with this relationship.
Abu Ma'sar adds... "It is also necessary to know that when the evil stars are in their own place or in a place where they have the right to dominate, their evil fails (Saturn here). That is why it is said that Mars, during the night, under the horizon, does not cause damage, nor Saturn, during the day. In fact, the evil stars in their own places are similar to a reliable lion; however, the evil Stars do damage when they are ladies of the bad places like the sixth, eighth, fourth and seventh(Saturn)".

Looks like a draw here, a win-win situation or a no winner contest whichever way you want to look at it.

Blessings,
Ouranos

Hello Breeze,

I share almost all of your views, except I won't say 2"40 with Neptune is a "tight" conjunction. And I don't think Saturn is completely hopeless.

A few points for you to consider:

-Moon being the applying planet, Lilly would say that you are the more eager one.

-Saturn is in the 7th. Lilly would say this guy isn't interested in a relationship. But in my experience, that isn't the case. The guy just might come off as a bit too conscious of his own interests (Tanit's view). Or a bit self-centred; that's all. Deb Houlding would say it's likely he has the upper hand in this relationship.

-Saturn, being a heavy planet, can love for a long period of time, despite being cold on the surface. (I have been Saturn in the first house in my own romance chart. I was even Aquarius. Oh man, I couldn't act colder, but I'm still feeling the pain, profound pain, even after years have passed.)

(Ouranus: Saturn in 7th could mean Querent has no faith in the astrologer, or the astrologer is biased - but Saturn being L7, is this still a stricture?)

Minor point about Venus for interest:

I almost thought that Venus is the other woman, her being in house 7. William Lilly found Bonatti's use of Moon's last aspect as the Querent's co-significator unreliable, so do other modern astrologers. Deb Houlding would say Venus being in 7th means that it helps in describing the Quesited's situation. She also said that Venus is another woman more often than not. Someone summarised her public lecture somewhere on this forum.

...However, Venus is Capricorn, and Capricorn is a lean sign. You said the woman is a bit on the podgy side, so I don't think she is the woman anymore.

(Ouranus: Saturn in 7th could mean Querent has no faith in the astrologer, or the astrologer is biased - but Saturn being L7, is this still a stricture?)

Thank you for your input Amelia!
Just to clarify. As per the strictures, which could be a whole debate here, this chart seems to be unfit to be read because nothing matches like the Hour, the Ruler of ASC, the Triplicities. Not that Sa is a stricture here but the whole chart is. And the Moon is Void, 1' from Venus and 3' from Saturn.

And totally agree with 'too self conscious' and 'upper hand' thing.

I took Saturn because it rules the quesited and her Moon is leaving the conjunction Ve/Sa. And it is an old habit of mine to always look at Saturn. I think it is Evangeline Adams who was always looking at Saturn's House position before a consultation for she said it showed the 'concern' of the client at that moment (Again, Saturn and Time!)

Cheers,
Ouranos

Hello Ouranos,

Thank you very much for time and comments. That is very precious for me.

[No wonder you asked “ Will we have a long term relation with him ? “ with SaturnL7 in the 7th... And I really read it as 'Will WE have" instead of 'Will I have" as if you were doing a subconscious deliberate mistake. ]

Do you mean Saturn in the 7th. signifies that the question was not asked correctly ?

I remember the time I asked the question. It was as if I was not on this plane, as if I lost touch with that very moment ( I am very analytic by the way , so consiouncus - not much feelings/ dreams ) .And then later, when I thought about it, I said to myself... I should have been afraid to take the responsibility of any decisions of myself and framed it that way. May be I just wanted to find out what future would bring to me. I do not know Ouranos, I honestly do not know really....

[After all, Saturn in the 7th going to conjunct Pluto and asking a question about a relationship. And Time. And the Moon Void of Course]

Could you please tell me how you predict Pluto conjunct Saturn.

I am not clear why you say Moon is void of course. It is to trine Saturn. Do you mean she will be void of course after trining Saturn and that is to say that no relation at all ? Do I get you right?

Thank you for all aphorisms. They are all very helpfull. I understand not hope from L7 as this is a night chart, yet Moon is beiseged even though she aspected Venus after Mars.

If I take Venus as myself... Yes, I am the younger, full of energy, optimistic, someone who is trying to evolve as much as she can, reading all the time... While on the other hand, he is just the opposite - very pessimistic, no direction in life, no wants, no desires. And the status he would provide... I think he is rich and I think he has an enviroment full of some important/ key people... But these are not the things those would love me... value me... No heart, no soul - they would make me unhappy. I think our sitatution fit well with Abu Mas’ar’s aphorism.

I understand you think this chart is unfit to read due to the reasons you describe. I do not agree with that - although I am not expert at all. Because I think that the positions, type of L1 and L7 fit well with the situtation, plus Moon trines Saturn describes the close contact between him and me. I mean the last dance and the kiss.

Moon being void of course - as I said I do not understand why you say it is void of course while she is applying to Saturn. I think it describes the period we were not in contact.

Thanks again.

Cheers

Hello Ameliaastrology,

Thank you very much for your time and effort you put on my thread.

I am so happy to hear that you mostly agree with me. I understand it other than the astrogical predictions, my predictions regarding nodes are sounding.

- Moon being the applying planet, I am the more eager one.

Yes, that may be 100% right. Also, as I noted above, I think this signifies that I am quick to leave any interaction which I sense it does not fit me. I also think it as the one who has the courage to establish a relationship, I am not so much clear of the latter one yet. Still thinking about it.

- Saturn and Saturn in the 7th.

I would agree with you and Deb., not with Lily )) - based on my expreinces as well. And I definately agree with you that they will love for a long time. And yes, they would take the upper hand and would be controlling the relation ( I read this old thread where Deb wrote about L7th’s ruler in the 7th.)

I read Liz Greene’s Saturn lately. I think her description for Saturn may be adapted to horary. I mean Saturn craves for the planet he is applied by, but he would be too critical and judgemental , and would be testing the other party - but he would be okay to wait for a long period of time to have what he craves for . And then he will leave himself to the other planet’s hands.

But the way they are doing it... It caused me lots of pain for me last time.

I wish I could be optimistic about Saturn in this chart, I could give him the time, I wish I have now met the one.... but I have the fact that this is a night chart and he is in a cardinal house....

Being too conscious of his own - I am not native to English. I am sorry, but I do not understand this. Is this to say he is so conscious of himself that he can not just leave himself into a relation ? Or Full of physical plane, and lacking emotions ?

Venus in the 7th - I read that thread. As it is the dispositor Venus and it was Moon’ s last aspect and via trine, plus the receptions, I thought it was me. Now, re-thinking , it might well describe him as he is a Taurus Sun and Taurus ascendant and he is more stylished compared to other men at his age.

Thanks again so much.

Cheers.

Breeze & Ouranos, thank you for the response.

Breeze: I should have mentioned that I have read too little about the nodes to comment. I actually glossed over the nodes bit you wrote and - forgot about it all and forgot to tell you so. Sorry. It was only the nodes I skipped; I double-checked.

Besiegement: Moon's and Mars' aspects with Saturn are two easy ones so I'm not sure I'd say the moon is besieged. For me it isn't.

By being conscious of his own interests: I mean his focus would be protecting himself, wanting things to work to his advantage, probably keeping the upper hand. It might not be easy for him to give up himself to be vulnerable in a relationship. He would hold back a little.

Good luck,
Amelia

Hi Ameliaastrology,

All noted with thanks.

Cheers.

There are already a lot of good comments but one other thing I want to mention about my longterm experience as Cancer rising and a Moon-Saturn aspect in natal (from what I have read/seen or personally experienced) is that the Moon person is often treated as if their needs are immature and to be censored or invalidated by the Saturn person. The Saturn person tends to control the relationship and feeds off of the energy of the lunar person and this ends up feeling one-sided a lot of the time and can be painful and you feel like you are never adequate. They see you as a source of much needed inspiration, youth, passion and life but the problem is they often take and don't give much life back. This can indicate a longterm relationship but I think there are caveats to consider with Moon-Saturn/Venus. If you are someone who is very self assured and can back away from someone who can be potentially toxic and recognize that in the other then I would say proceed but with caution. If you are likely to fall for someone who may treat you badly and not walk away from them even if they do then I would say this relationship could be potentially a bad fit. I am not saying it is all bad here but I would be cautious.

This is especially true since Pluto is in the 7th too.

Hi Tanit,

All noted with thanks.

Sorry, but I am not clear why caution with Moon - Saturn/ Venus. I understand Moon-Saturn, but not Venus. Is this because Venus ( relation ? ) gets a very heavy tone with Saturn or Saturn dominating the relationship or would that be his interest in young women ( even Venus is Moon’s dispositor and Moon trines Venus) ? Or something else I can not consider.

Thanks again.

Cheers.