Fleur wrote:

Tanit3333 wrote:

My observations have shown that Venus and Jupiter are not particularly benefic.

Well, your anecdotal observations would be counter to many years of traditional astrology theories and applications.

As far as Jupiter being present at death, Jupiter can bring relief or release. Also, benefics may still lord over subject matter that relates to death or lord difficult houses. I don't see how that is applicable in this case though. Every chart is unique and I fail to see why Jupiter is so bad here, other than using examples that are not related to this chart and assuming that they are.

I can think of loads of examples of charts with strong Venus and or Jupiter, where you could hardly call them benefics. Bernie Madoff's chart is a good example. https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Madoff,_Bernie
I wonder how the traditional astrologers would have interpreted Bernie Madoff's chart? Strong Venus elevated near the Midheaven? Venus and Jupiter dominate his chart.

And Dennis Nilsen https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nilsen,_Dennis
He has Jupiter exactly conjunct his Ascendant.

I didn't mean that Jupiter was bad in the OP's chart.

Hi Fleur,

Madoff's chart is actually a good example of strong benefic influence, not a good example of them not working beneficially. Madoff lived the life of a billionaire before his arrest, and he really has a very powerful chart. Venus is in the midheaven in Taurus, but is conjoined Mars, out of sect and in detriment (I use the sidereal zodiac). Obviously, this means Mars is just as powerful as Venus in Madoff's chart, but much more prone to cause harm - both to others in how he accumulated wealth (Venus and Mars in Fortune 11th) and his own eventual public downfall (Mars in the 10th afflicting the 10th lord). Jupiter is not as powerfully-placed in the 7th, but is in-sect and eastern. However, its lord is a malefic, Saturn, in the 8th house, and this shows a tendency for the Jupiterian benefits to lack a certain staying power and to be tied up with other people's money in a harmful way. Madoff's chart is an interesting one, and I believe that Saturn having dominion over the last part of life as third triplicity lord of the sun is indicative of his troubles coming when he was in his 70s.

I have never seen Nilsen's chart before, so thanks for sharing that. Since I do not know too much about his life, I can't say a lot about Jupiter, though as 7th lord I read he had little problem attracting sexual partners. I am more interested in the very nasty Saturn-Mars conjunction in the midheaven in Cancer, to be honest. It dominates the chart both by its superior position - in fact, it is in superior position to all planets but the moon, who actually applies to Saturn next - but also since Saturn rules Fortune. Added to this, I believe his deranged sexual acts are shown by the lord of Spirit, Venus, being overcome by this culminating malefic conjunction without the protective aspect of Jupiter (while also noting that Venus' natural siginifcations have some import).

I guess my point is that it isn't as straight-forward as saying 'benefic in angular house = good' as we need to consider other factors, such as whose sign a planet is in and its aspects, and what each benefic has dominion over in each chart. It is also important to consider what the main points of the chart are saying outside of the benefic's placement. For me, I would look at the ASC and 10th/MC, Fortune and Spirit and the sect light to get a preliminary 'feel' for what is important and what isn't.

A prominent Jupiter implies to what extend the person will be able to fulfill his wishes.
In Bernie case, for 15 years he managed to "burn" more than $ 65 billion from his clients. Unlimited greed.
Nilsen fulfilled his nasty wishes for 5 years and murdered at least 12 men.
There criminals were not the unlucky criminal who catch immediately. Luck was at their side for a long time.
In Madoff chart heliocentric Mars in exact square to helio Neptune, conjunct cusps 2nd and 5th. Mercury square Pluto in 12th , helio Mercury, ruler of 2nd in Scorpio, exactly square the Asc.
In Nilsen chart, Venus in Scorpio square Pluto, helio Venus exactly square Saturn which is on MC.

You don't need to dig deep in Madoff's chart the Venus-Mars South node conjunction in the 10th The SN fateful deception on the Pleiades ends in tears, with Mars antiscion landing on Pluto 12th cusp incarceration.
Madoffs Mars at 4 Gemini is the same as mine is almost the same as Tony Blair
or as some would say BLiar, What is it with Mars in Gemini that gives deception
In all 3 cases, Gemini ruler is an invisible Mercury using Placidus software it shows an invisible Mercury in all cases except mine is in a helical phase within 7 days of birth. It was later on life I uncovered deception of which I had been blissfully unaware.

Thanks Konrad and others for you well thought out replies.

I have long puzzled about beneficial transits to bad people's charts, and whether these are associated with them getting away with crimes, or if they occur at the times of the committing of crimes, and whether malefic transits happen to their charts at the times of committing crimes or when they are caught and punished?

I have sometimes wondered if the same rules don't apply to bad people's charts, such as Bernie Madoff and Denis Nilsen.

It is interesting that they both have such strong benefics in their natal charts.

Things are probably not that simple, and more will be at play. I have seen strong Jupiter not delivering the great things you would expect in the chart of a good person, or maybe Jupiter does deliver but only at the last moment or after a lot of struggle. I have also noticed chart angles' Solar Arcs to natal Jupiter happen at the same time as lucky breaks.