If you all are referring to me, I was asking on my own behalf about the marriage of an ex-lover. There- does that complicate it even more?

For the sake of clarity, if the spouse who wants a divorce should consider good aspects like trine/sextile to be as yes or no to their question? I am wondering how would it be checked in the chart.

ashwsh wrote:For the sake of clarity, if the spouse who wants a divorce should consider good aspects like trine/sextile to be as yes or no to their question? I am wondering how would it be checked in the chart.

Bonatti has answered such questions as "Whether or not a servant may be freed from servitude" (see Liber Astronomiae, part 4). He considered a good aspect with the MC Lord or the Sun (both significators of masters) a good sign, because the master would agree to give the servant (slave) what he wanted, which was to go free.

If we agree with this, then we say that when a Querent wants a divorce, their significators being friendly with the Descendant Lord or even other planets are likely to be fortunate. The 10th house, for example, could represent the authorities or courts, and marriage is a legal matter. If the authorities sympathise with the Querent's cause, the divorce should come easy.

It's very tricky, cause we all know in decumbiture charts the last thing we want is a good aspect with good mutual reception between Lord 8 and the Querent! But I do think an estranged/unwanted spouse quite different from disease or death. You can't reason with disease or death, either they come and wreak havoc or they don't exist. But people are different. And Bonatti thinks a good aspect with the person, helps forge some agreement. I must confess that I have little experience with divorce charts, so it's just an attempt at finding some logic.

Amelia

Personally, I would look at both natal charts with transits, progressions, synastry and so on.
Why bother with a horary chart here?
And I read in your question a personal interest to reunite with a former lover.

Best to you,
Ouranos

AmeliaS wrote:

ashwsh wrote:For the sake of clarity, if the spouse who wants a divorce should consider good aspects like trine/sextile to be as yes or no to their question? I am wondering how would it be checked in the chart.

Bonatti has answered such questions as "Whether or not a servant may be freed from servitude" (see Liber Astronomiae, part 4). He considered a good aspect with the MC Lord or the Sun (both significators of masters) a good sign, because the master would agree to give the servant (slave) what he wanted, which was to go free.

If we agree with this, then we say that when a Querent wants a divorce, their significators being friendly with the Descendant Lord or even other planets are likely to be fortunate. The 10th house, for example, could represent the authorities or courts, and marriage is a legal matter. If the authorities sympathise with the Querent's cause, the divorce should come easy.

It's very tricky, cause we all know in decumbiture charts the last thing we want is a good aspect with good mutual reception between Lord 8 and the Querent! But I do think an estranged/unwanted spouse quite different from disease or death. You can't reason with disease or death, either they come and wreak havoc or they don't exist. But people are different. And Bonatti thinks a good aspect with the person, helps forge some agreement. I must confess that I have little experience with divorce charts, so it's just an attempt at finding some logic.

Amelia

The complexity of the divorce process does not depend on whether the stars are formed today or not, but on how angry people in marriage are at each other and how much they are attached to material values.

The complexity of the divorce process does not depend on whether the stars are formed today or not, but on how angry people in marriage are at each other and how much they are attached to material values.

Stars impel, they don't compel. You have always 'free will' to choose other paths like psychology forums.
J.P. Morgan once famously said that millionaires don't need astrologers, but billionaires do. J.P. Morgan thought there was more to the market than timing, and he used astrologers to help guide him in that timing in his businesses and investments. He's not alone.

Ouranos wrote:Personally, I would look at both natal charts with transits, progressions, synastry and so on.
Why bother with a horary chart here?
And I read in your question a personal interest to reunite with a former lover.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Hey Ouranos,

Maybe you mistook me for someone else. I have no former lover in mind :-).
I will post the chart in a couple of days (I'm less than 30days on the forum; based on guidelines not permitted to share a chart before that) of someone who wants to get out of a marriage, is very keen on seeking her freedom, but I saw so many trines and sextiles in the chart so wondered if a divorce was going to happen at all?

I share the concerns of Ouranous. What exactly is your interest here? Again I would strongly suspect that you have designs on one of these people. If so then the question would not be about their divorce but would be about whether you and the desired will get together. If someone is asking you as an astrologer for a reading - which does not seem to be the case - then they would be signified by the ASC.

The confusion here is because we don't know your motivation. How would their divorce effect you? Would it be beneficial or detrimental to you? Which one of the couple are you closest to? If the person is your friend, then I'd look to see where your friendship is heading. In that case I'd look at the ASC and the 11th house. If the person you're closest to is a sibling I'd look at the ASC and the 3rd house.

I cannot emphasize this enough. The querent has to have an interest in the question. You cannot ask a question for someone else. They can ask you to do a chart as an astrologer, and they can ask for your help with their own chart, but you cannot ask a question that leaves you out of the question.

Again, what is your interest here? Why are you asking this question?

Members,

Please reread the initial post and then the new posts from 2021. These are different people asking questions. The new posts do not even mention a former lover and whoever posted this in 2006 may not even be a member anymore, so asking what their motivation is 15 years later isn't likely to get any answers. I agree that sometimes horary questions from a querent can bring up moral dilemmas though. An astrologer has the right to turn away such questions that are posed to them and make them uncomfortable (I know I would).

MarkF wrote:I share the concerns of Ouranous. What exactly is your interest here? Again I would strongly suspect that you have designs on one of these people. If so then the question would not be about their divorce but would be about whether you and the desired will get together. If someone is asking you as an astrologer for a reading - which does not seem to be the case - then they would be signified by the ASC.

The confusion here is because we don't know your motivation. How would their divorce effect you? Would it be beneficial or detrimental to you? Which one of the couple are you closest to? If the person is your friend, then I'd look to see where your friendship is heading. In that case I'd look at the ASC and the 11th house. If the person you're closest to is a sibling I'd look at the ASC and the 3rd house.

I cannot emphasize this enough. The querent has to have an interest in the question. You cannot ask a question for someone else. They can ask you to do a chart as an astrologer, and they can ask for your help with their own chart, but you cannot ask a question that leaves you out of the question.

Again, what is your interest here? Why are you asking this question?

Hello Mark,

Please be assured that the querent asked the question here and will be the ascendant. Made an attempt a few years ago to walk out of the marriage, but didn't have enough self-confidence but now she feels she can't do this anymore and really looks forward to her freedom.
The least one can be, is to be supportive of someone who wants to reclaim their life. Hope you understand.

Regards

Ash,

Did your friend explicitly ask you to do a horary chart for them? Or did that person just ask you for some advice and you decided to do a chart for them?

Overall I'd say that in order to show signs of a divorce, a chart would have to show two or more signs of separation. Life follows Newton's laws too. An object at rest will stay at rest until an outside force acts on it. An inconclusive chart will show the marriage continuing, though perhaps not in a great condition.

Let me give an example. The same chart can show two different outcomes based on the situation when the chart was made. Suppose some guy just met a woman and he's smitten with her. He wants to know if something serious will come of it and he does a horary. The chart shows the ASC ruler separating from a trine with the 7th house ruler with no reception. They probably will not get married. Suppose another guy had been married for twenty years and was not sure about the state of his marriage and he does a chart. The chart shows the same thing, the ASC ruler separating from the 7th house ruler with no reception. Given the inertia of a twenty year marriage this is unlikely to show a divorce. They may be growing apart but not enough to get a divorce. You would need to see perhaps one or both significators retrograde, slow, afflicted by either Saturn or Mars, one or both of the significators in their fall or detriment, etc. in order to get a divorce.

I think that these rules apply more in larger issues such as marriage and divorce. For a smaller question such as when will the pay check arrive (when you already know that you will get paid) it doesn't require as many signs. John Frawley did that chart about when will the repair man arrive. The chart showed the ruler of the 6th house at the end of the 5th house about to cross into the 6th house - the workman was going back home and was not arriving at Frawley's house that day.

In larger questions like health, marriage, children my understanding is that there has to be several signs to show the outcome that is asked about.

MarkF wrote:Ash,

Did your friend explicitly ask you to do a horary chart for them? Or did that person just ask you for some advice and you decided to do a chart for them?

Overall I'd say that in order to show signs of a divorce, a chart would have to show two or more signs of separation. Life follows Newton's laws too. An object at rest will stay at rest until an outside force acts on it. An inconclusive chart will show the marriage continuing, though perhaps not in a great condition.

Let me give an example. The same chart can show two different outcomes based on the situation when the chart was made. Suppose some guy just met a woman and he's smitten with her. He wants to know if something serious will come of it and he does a horary. The chart shows the ASC ruler separating from a trine with the 7th house ruler with no reception. They probably will not get married. Suppose another guy had been married for twenty years and was not sure about the state of his marriage and he does a chart. The chart shows the same thing, the ASC ruler separating from the 7th house ruler with no reception. Given the inertia of a twenty year marriage this is unlikely to show a divorce. They may be growing apart but not enough to get a divorce. You would need to see perhaps one or both significators retrograde, slow, afflicted by either Saturn or Mars, one or both of the significators in their fall or detriment, etc. in order to get a divorce.

I think that these rules apply more in larger issues such as marriage and divorce. For a smaller question such as when will the pay check arrive (when you already know that you will get paid) it doesn't require as many signs. John Frawley did that chart about when will the repair man arrive. The chart showed the ruler of the 6th house at the end of the 5th house about to cross into the 6th house - the workman was going back home and was not arriving at Frawley's house that day.

In larger questions like health, marriage, children my understanding is that there has to be several signs to show the outcome that is asked about.

Yes, the person asked me to a Horary. Honestly, I do not know how good are third-party horary results. When the ascendant themselves asks a question I feel it is more likely to give a genuine outcome. So in this case I asked her to ask the question when it is really strong on her mind and note the time and location. I'm trying to learn horary but still have limited knowledge.
I will post the chart as soon as I am in the clear so that we can discuss my observations plus gather more inputs.
Thank you very much for bearing with me.