As I said, I'm not out to discuss what 'works', since our criteria are likely to be too different for us ever to agree, and I don't want to derail the thread completely. But since you ask, the only direction from your latest list that seems convincing to me (as in 'I would have predicted that') is the Sun to the square of Saturn for illness.

In my view, the quest for the zero orb is a mistake, because all events are processes, and many of them are spread out over time; moreover, a single direction may correspond to many such events which all agree with its symbolism. An example from real life to match yours: not long ago, a client of mine mentioned that she had recently been troubled by a persistent skin condition (an itching rash) and asthma. I noticed that she had the Asc directed to the opposition of Mercury (= Mercury was setting), so I quoted to her from Lilly's description of that direction:

vaine expence of Money to learne some Science or other to no purpose, an aversnesse from former Studies, subject to the Itch or Scabs, to weak Lungs, difficulty of Breathing, a reviving of some clandestine former Plots or Conspiracies, a restlesse and unquiet time, ever occupied to no purpose, fraud and deceit in Contracts, Words, Letters, the Native involved in Law-suits [...]

That actually made her laugh: in addition to the medical troubles, she had just decided not to pursue a line of education that she had been contemplating, as it was proving too expensive, and she was involved in a drawn-out lawsuit. These events were all perfectly covered by the symbolism and could have been predicted in advance, at least as possibilities; but they took place over a period of many months, perhaps more than a year. The direction in effect created a period, not a point in time.

So I am a minimalist with regard not to orbs but to symbolism, using only classical aspects and planets and making a clear distinction between significators and promissors. Because our expectations of how directions should work differ, we are not likely to convince each other no matter how many examples we cite.

Re: "...our expectations of how directions should work differ..."

That is perhaps the hingepin on which all of this hangs. I don't have any preconceived notions of what should be there. I am relying on looking at events, for well-timed births, and seeing what aspects are historically actually there. For Topocentric Primary Directions, this has been going on for many decades, so quite a list of correspondences has been built up. Still, in the main, it is the classical meanings of planets (as per Ebertin, etc.) that are in evidence at events.

When they are in abundance at that category of event (for instance "death of Brother" or "getting married"), then that itself forms my expectations. Since the aspects that are in evidence fit normal astrological symbolism and the aspects happen tight in time to the events, then it would be preposterous to discount them, when they expectedly show up again in other charts at the timing of the same type of event. I admit, in this system (Topocentric Primary Directions) in comparison, I have virtually all of the experience, so I wouldn't (for instance) expect you to have witnessed Node-IC connections at important familial deaths over and over and over again.

Re: Processes

Yes, I agree that a particular aspect often has various real-life events/circumstances that relate to it. However, the major events connected with it *always* occur in the time that the Primary Direction is within these extremely small orbs. (in this system it is so, but I can't comment on other systems with lesser/weaker time-specificity, nor would I care to...)

If you look at virtually any source of "meanings" of astrological factors, Saturn and Mars together (for instance) universally lists "issues of death" as one of the main correspondences. Naturally, when Saturn comes to Mars tightly in time to my first experience of death or funerals, how could it be seen by a reasonable person as merely coincidental?

My Wife and I didn't pick the day we got married, that was dependent on the availability of the art gallery, where we were to be wed. Still, when my Ascendant (ie. *I*) came to my Venus (my woman/my relationships/my appreciation of art!) [orb 0° 0'], I got married in an art gallery. I stand firmly in my opinion that only an idiot would say, "coincidence." Using whatever system you are using, your seeing the Ascendant directing to Venus wouldn't make you think something important to do with relationships is likely afoot?

I do agree with one thing you said and I think 100% so, is that we are definitely using different systems, with different levels of specificity, with very different rules and expectations.

Since we're seeing this at such variance, I'd like to recuse both of us for the moment and openly ask others...

*If you saw PD Saturn contacting Mars to scant minutes of arc, would you think that an important death happening at the same time IS or ISN'T related?

*If you saw that PD Venus was moving to oppose Jupiter (to scant minutes of arc ) and the person was up for a potential job promotion, would you think the person likely WOULD or WOULDN'T be likely to have an improved financial condition? Do you see the job promotion received as related to this aspect occurring or not?

*If you saw the PD Sun (classical symbol for father-figures) coming to contact the 8th House and your Father-in-Law suddenly died at this time, would you think the symbolism is CORRECT or NOT RELATED TO THE EVENT?

I am intensely curious how other people are seeing this...

Atlantean wrote:

I am intensely curious how other people are seeing this...

I see this as you have personally discovered an astrological system that has become very important to you and your life. You want to share your excitement about this system with other astrologers. But until you explicitly explain in detail what other astrologers need to have in place in order to see/understand what you are seeing/understanding, most astrologers cannot make a decision if they want to investigate your system of astrology. I suspect it would be cost prohibited for most other astrologers to set-up the same protocols you have in place for tracking your system of astrology? How can your system help in seeing whats ahead in one's futue with all the aspects involved to improve qualities of life? If I ran a list of all the small orb aspects with your system for my future--how many small orb aspects would I see in a months time? Is it only a system which can be viewed in awe with hindsight or can it be implemented for future sight to act upon?

Thank you, Steve, for your comment, points, and concerns...

Re: "I see this as you have personally discovered an astrological system that has become very important to you and your life. You want to share your excitement about this system with other astrologers."

Our (astrological) lives, if we're lucky, are filled with A-HA moments, where suddenly things make sense or something works miraculously. You had this experience somewhat with your recent exploration of Age Harmonics. I find Topocentric Primary Directions and Age Harmonics to be two of the most important "finds" of the last century. Recognizing this, of course I'd like to share my enthusiasm and my findings. (hopefully others would also look into them and share their findings...because it is the sharing that is one of the most important parts of these forums)

Re: "But until you explicitly explain in detail what other astrologers need to have in place in order to see/understand what you are seeing/understanding, most astrologers cannot make a decision if they want to investigate your system of astrology."

Yes, there is precious little software that calculates these primary directions correctly. I am only aware of Polaris [FREE] (Isaac's incredible rectification aid), Astro [FREE] (an old DOS program by Alexander Marr) and at least one software title [not FREE] from Rumen Kolev. Since (to me) Topocentric Primary Directions actually DELIVER on the "promise" of primary directions, I hope of course to see them become implemented in other software. I would hope especially for Janus to incorporate them, since it's the software I prefer using. Time will tell.

Re: "How can your system help in seeing whats ahead in one's futue with all the aspects involved to improve qualities of life? If I ran a list of all the small orb aspects with your system for my future--how many small orb aspects would I see in a months time?"

Let's keep it honest. (ie. blind test) I have your birthtime, and am relatively sure of its correctness. List a couple of main events with the date they occurred and I'll see what TPDs are in evidence and list the ones that are within orb. Fair?

Re: "Is it only a system which can be viewed in awe with hindsight or can it be implemented for future sight to act upon?"

When I saw the Sun-8th House aspect forming, my first thought was the death of my elderly Father (86) might be being indicated. It turned out it was not my Father, but my Father-in-Law. So, if I'd have said, "I suspect the death of an important male, likely a father-figure in some way" (ie. what was indicated astrologically, I would have been 100% correct); however, if I were to take that further and say specifically MY OWN FATHER, I would have been wrong.

For open-ended things, where there is no specific date, it's like most other systems...relatively difficult to have any certaintly exactly WHEN the event(s) would happen. When we're talking about things with a certain date (elections, contests, sports events, job interviews, etc.) they are extremely telling.

Atlantean wrote:That is perhaps the hingepin on which all of this hangs. I don't have any preconceived notions of what should be there.

Of course you do, or you wouldn't be doing astrology. One can change one's expectations, of course, on the grounds of experience or for some other reason (or a combination of reasons), but that's different. If you didn't have any preconceived notions, you wouldn't be appealing to others for confirmation that the symbolism of the directions you cite is appropriate. The Sun as a father or other male relative, the 8th for death: these are ideas that have been around for two millennia and are shared by practically all astrologers. Notions don't come any more preconceived than that.

Yes, I agree that a particular aspect often has various real-life events/circumstances that relate to it. However, the major events connected with it *always* occur in the time that the Primary Direction is within these extremely small orbs.

Which begs the question of how you define a major event. In an illness lasting months, is it the onset? The time of greatest intensity? What if different symptoms reach maximum intensity at different times? In a lawsuit that drags on for months or years, what moment is the major event that should correspond to a zero orb? The serving of a writ? Meeting in court? The verdict? What if there is an appeal? Etc.

Using whatever system you are using, your seeing the Ascendant directing to Venus wouldn't make you think something important to do with relationships is likely afoot?

Yes, of course (though I am not sure we mean the same thing: in classical terminology, the direct direction 'Asc to the body of Venus' would mean the time when Venus is rising). I read a chart like that recently: as the Asc entered the terms of Mercury with Venus in them, the native went abroad to university where he met the girl who would later become his wife. As the conjunction tightened, their relationship developed, until eventually they returned to their respective countries; then the native went abroad again to propose and was accepted; and then they had two ceremonies, one in each country with a different set of relatives (Venus was in a double-bodied sign). A long process, where defining a single, zero-orb major event seems impossible.

Another instance: only this morning a student of mine told me that when his Asc was directed to the body of Saturn with latitude at age 4-5, he suffered terrible separation anxiety on starting school, became desperately unhappy and eventually stopped eating almost completely, which made him stop growing at a normal rate, etc. Another long process in which deciding on a 'major event' seems quite arbitrary to me.

Atlantean wrote:

For open-ended things, where there is no specific date, it's like most other systems...relatively difficult to have any certaintly exactly WHEN the event(s) would happen. When we're talking about things with a certain date (elections, contests, sports events, job interviews, etc.) they are extremely telling.

This is exactly my style of astrology I practice for myself and a couple of important clients. First give the link for the free software I need in order to communicate with you with questions. I have a possible important date coming-up in my future: Dec 31 2021 11:00 PM CST. Tell me what you see with your TPDs? Another most important date in my past occurred July 8 1985 10:00 AM CDT, tell me what aspects the TPDs made? Thanks

Re: "The Sun as a father or other male relative, the 8th for death: these are ideas that have been around for two millennia and are shared by practically all astrologers. Notions don't come any more preconceived than that."

Yes, but until one started to actually SEE those aspects at relevant events, it's still in the theoretical in that particular system. Once it's confirmed enough times, it becomes safe to move it out of the theoretical and accept it as practical. Luckily Alexander Marr, Isaac Starkman, and many others have already done the groundwork analyzing events to see what we actually find, compared to what we might expect to find. (with a good example being perhaps the Node coming to the IC for a death in the family... someone else might see it as "an association that comes to my Father" and be totally wrong. It's only when aspects show up with reliability that we can really make a rule or see it as an expectation)

Re: Processes

Yes, of course there are processes that occur over longer periods of time. Still, normally, with most things...those processes are made of smaller events/circumstances that are more tightly-defined, which together can be seen as part of a process and are normally to be seen in the various moving systems, including Topocentric Primary Directions.

When I was living with my Grandmother (a long time ago), I would likely not have gone out to find a mate and start to build a family. Once she died, that is what I immediately did and within a year's time already had a baby on the way. We could say that my Grandmother's death was a part of my "relationship/start-a-family process," since so much of my activity relating to relationships was dependent on her. Still, in a TPD sense, her death would be seen as a relatively independent event, likewise for my meeting my first wife, likewise for my Son being born. Starting my family was a process...but it was made up of events, not all of which are obviously related, but all are extremely likely described through the concurrent aspects.

Re: "In an illness lasting months, is it the onset?"

Much more likely the onset than some point seeming randomly in the middle of the time period of the illness. More research should be done in this area...but that's what I see... often the aspect is when the illness is noticed or becomes debilitating. (ie. a change)

Re: "In a lawsuit that drags on for months or years, what moment is the major event that should correspond to a zero orb?"

Likely the timing of being sued and especially the timing (and outcome) of the verdict. [There is no zero-orb concept really... Any time that the aspect is still within the expected orb, a corresponding event or circumstance is extremely likely. To convert this to actual time, we're talking +/- a month for all aspects except conj/opp and +/- 2 months for those. One can often find multiple testimonies (aspects-wise) for a type of event and the event often occurs in the overlap period of those aspects.]

If you're attempting to become the (elected) town dog-catcher and the result will be given on the 5th of January...we look at the 5th of January and weigh the aspects to see if it looks like "celebration" or "gaining a position" or whether we see "dejection" or "loss."

Processes are relatively difficult to talk about and harder normally to define. When did you grow up? What date? Still, if you have a life-changing event that forced you to suddenly grow up, THAT EVENT would extremely likely be in the Primary Directions and likely expressed by more than one Primary Direction.

Additionally, with processes, since we're looking at a longer period of time, there will normally be some aspect to be found in that time, which would SEEM to relate to that process, whether it had anything to actually do with that process or not. When we are constrained to events (and keep very small orbs) the fudge-factor is mostly gone, because a tighter period of time is defined and there are considerably less aspects to be considered as somehow relevant.

Some will pick up on the value of these methods and some will not...I don't have any emotional investment as to who does and who doesn't. Still, as I mentioned, I think TPDs and Age Harmonics are probably the two greatest astrological measurement system finds of the last century, so of course I speak about them with great enthusiasm. They have been fundamental most in my finding a way to have charts that work as well with out-of-sample events as with the in-sample events used in the rectification...and to me, that's all the proof that was ever necessary.

SteveS wrote:I have a possible important date coming-up in my future: Dec 31 2021 11:00 PM CST. Tell me what you see with your TPDs? Another most important date in my past occurred July 8 1985 10:00 AM CDT, tell me what aspects the TPDs made? Thanks

Steve, wouldn't it be better if you give, for example, three selection possibilities of what it could be, because the planets have many different meanings.

Let me share with you Atlantean what I am looking at with Primary Directions to the extent that they are not like isolated transits.

Always refer to the Radix for Directions, Transits or Profections as they unfold what is promised in the natal chart.

You need to identify the Rulers of Time or Lords of the Year for any specific period in time.
1) Age - The Firdarias
The same PD over the MC for a child, an adult or an old person will have different meanings and results.
2) Primary Direction - Sign and Term of the Directed ASC
The ruler of the sign, term and planet encountered becomes planets to watch during this period.
And of course, any direction to a natal placement.
They define a period in time where someting is highlighted, which will be activated by profections, SR and transits.
A PD is considered in relation to three places: the place where a given significator arrives in the movement of the primary Direction, the place of its transit and the place of the sign and ruler which receives it .
3) Profections
The Profection is like a 'train station', an 'arrival point' and tells you the general unfolding of the year.
For PD and Profection, the significator is the planet or point receiving (passive) the aspect
The promissor is the planet or point perfecting (active) the aspect.
Vettius Valens in Book 4 devotes the whole chapter to the interactions between both.
4) Solar Return
Look at the ASC, its ruler, aspects received by the Sun, angular planets and other significant aspects especially if they repeat something in the radix.

Giuseppe Bezza provides some guidelines here which can help you to judge the 4 Rulers of Time above.
His approach is more on SR but you can extend it to all 4.
http://www.cieloeterra.it/fra/fra.artic ... zione.html

IV. Observations on the Lord of the Year.
The Lord of the Year is a general performer and communicates its own characteristics to the year. For example, if Saturn is the lord of the year, we will say that the year will be miserable. If in the nativity Saturn is not configured for the beneficent, misfortune will be certain. But if it is configured for the beneficial, observe if these aspects are also present in the revolution (SR) because then there will be no misfortune in the year.

1. Observe if the lord of the year is configured as the sign of the year in the annual revolution (SR). This indicates an abundance of events, and in general an active and productive year. Whether it is configured there by sextile or by trine, or if it is in the sign of the year, events will happen with ease and tend towards a favorable outcome. Whether he does it squarely or in opposition, they will come with difficulty, there will be hindrances, hardness, but they will nevertheless tend to a favorable outcome. Without the configuration, the year will be miserable, unproductive.

2. Observe the testimonies (aspects) that the Lord of the Year receives, because you must arrange them according to the same reasoning as in the previous paragraph.

3. Observe if an evil star configures itself at the sign of the year: this indicates an unfavorable outcome, especially if the aspect is hostile. If it is configured by sextile or by trine, it announces a favorable outcome only if it is correctly configured to the lord of the year or if he receives the Moon in the revolution (SR).

4. Observe the Moon in the figure of the year (SR). If the Lord of the Year bears witness to him, that testimony is akin to a favorable outcome of affairs.

5. Observe the power of the Lord of the Year:
oriental in both themes (nativity and annual revolution –SR);
angular in both themes;
configured to benefit in both themes;
configured to the Sun and the Moon in both charts, especially to the Sun in a diurnal revolution (SR), to the Moon in a nocturnal revolution (SR):
These circumstances all indicate power, benefit, utility, favorable outcome.
If most of these circumstances are present in the nativity and absent in the revolution (SR), it means a lessening of things signified by the lord of the year.
If, on the other hand, the Lord of the Year is misplaced in the Nativity and well placed in the Revolution (SR), it means an improvement in what he means by nature.
For example, if Jupiter is well placed in the two charts (Nativity and SR), it indicates that year great honors, significant gains, the favorable outcome of companies. If it is misplaced in both themes, it means that the blessings will not be fulfilled and the native will go astray because of them. If it is well placed in the nativity and badly placed in the revolution (SR), it means a partial lessening of these things. If it is misplaced in the nativity and well placed in the revolution (SR), it signifies a certain benefit. The greatness of good and evil depends on the strength of the lord of the year.

As you can see, a Primary Direction does not happen by itself like an isolated case. There is a forest that comes with it.


Blessings,
Ouranos

Hey Steve,

Because I don't know if your birthtime is exact enough for the Topocentric Primary Directions, I've listed them for your birthtime and the various times around your birthtime.

Please look at that first date, where you know what happened and make sure we're looking at the right TPD's. ie. survey the aspects to make sure I would be working with a more correct time

As we move the birthtime earlier, for that first event, we get 3rd/9th House references coming in, that aren't there with a 10 am birthtime. Likewise, when we move your birthtime a tiny bit later, suddenly there are abundant 5th/11th House references that aren't there with the 10 am birthtime.

I'll put forth that if the 1st event (7/8/1985) is especially 3rd/9th House or 5th/11th House related, then your birthtime definitely needs to be rectified. (but we'd be getting you closer to the exact time, just knowing that...) If the event relates to what you would call a Saturn-Pluto event (knowing what you know about your birth Pluto), the 10 am time might very well be right.

Here are the TPDs for the various potential birthtimes...
(first the 7/8/1985 event, second the coming 12/31/2021 "event")

As for the software, you'll most likely need a wrapper/container, unless you have access to a WindowsXP computer. (for Polaris) I am using VMWare and it works great. I have a Win7 Laptop, but inside the virtual machine (VMWare), is a fully-functioning WindowsXP console.

Isaac has made the software publicly available for free. You'll find all the important info here, https://ajak41.wixsite.com/polaris

For using Astro, you'd need a DOS wrapper like DOS-BOX in order to run it.

If at all possible, I'd recommend getting Polaris running, because Astro is older, DOS-based, and a bit clumsier to use. I use both, coincidentally, because Astro gives all 4 versions of PSSR aspects (prog-SSR, reg-SSR, conv prog-SSR, and conv reg-SSR), as well as a running list of dates that Primary Directions become partile.

Linchi wrote:

Steve, wouldn't it be better if you give, for example, three selection possibilities of what it could be, because the planets have many different meanings.

Linchi, thanks, I understand where you are coming from, but I have enough experience with my astrological life’s compass (40 years) to understand in knowing ways what/if any planetary symbolism means in my life for any one specific day that may or may not be important relative to my life environments/objectives. Right now, I need to get enough experience under by belt with these new systems in order to determine if I can fit & work these new astrological systems into my life objectives. I hope you understand and peace be with you.