Hi Monk

I've found your research very interesting and your self deprecation amusing. I think you have the makings of a damn fine book there. You can always get a more Mars Saturn type to correlate your winding thought patterns!

It seems to be focused on Juno really but tell me are you seeing it from Bernadettes viewpoint or merely from your own original research.

I was interested to know why you thought Neptune was a planet of surrender. I was particularly struck by some of the dates you cited. Whereas infact I would see the planet as the planet of deceit. I have seen compelling evidence both video and documentary taken at the times of the 11th September attacks which denote that the twin towers were attacked by Drone aircraft (American remote control bomber aircraft) and eye witness interviews taken at the time by members of the public, police and fire brigade. They say they saw something different. They say they heard bombs going off in the towers. Experts say the crumbling of the towers could only have happened on a physical level if they had been detonated to be demolished. I know that is contentious an argument but this is the spirit of the internet where as adults we are able to debate freely.

Again you site Neptune as the planet of surrender in Germany but at the same time there were all these spoils being divvied up that benefitted more countries than had the war never happened. I too am interested to know how the ancients used the fixed stars did they see them as guide points or did they worship them in nature. Don't you think the shape of the Pyramids had something to do with the way they viewed the world at the time as a flat place. I found your stuff on Masonary fascinating. I'm interested to know whether their ritualistic practices pre date the mediaeval periods. It is a shame Alexandria was burned down but I can't help but feel that it was deliberate.

Hi Skippy,
I try not to be political, and hopefully i can delicately try to answer some of your questions without being rapped over the knuckles by the moderators, and i have to respect forum rules, oops that i haven't looked at yet!
all conspiracy theories may be true for all i know, but what i do know is we have too many of them, which "turns off" the broad centre oppinion in the collective consciousness.
Far better to focus on the facts that are screaming at us.
At 08:10am., flight 77 departed from Washington D.C. for Los Angeles, which was hijacked after take-off, and we are led to believe that it was allowed to go on a journey without the most powerful country in the world doing anything till it comes back to Washington D.C. and crashes into the Pentagon 1 Hour and 35 minutes later......which was 59 minutes after the first strike on the World Trade Centre by flight 11 at 08:46am.
What was everyone doing, a moon dance? It is like the part in 6 million Dollar man when everything slooows down.
America is Mega-Powerful, they spend more on defence in a year than the gross national product of some countries achieve in a century, I have no idea how many billions of cost is tied up in "The World Airspace Defense Complex, City, deep under Cheyanne Mountain called NORAD, but it must be a staggering amount.
(I dont like lethal weapons anyway, but i found another who shares my natal chart alignments, who probably will be Supreme Commander of Norad, in the next few years, why are we so different?)
So something is clearly wrong, but i wouldn't like to guess what!
I have great empathy with the passengers of flight 93 who knew what their fate was going to be by being in contact with their loved ones by mobile phone, so they were informed on what happened to the "World Trade Tower", and bravely did what what American Defence should have done.....crashed the plane over farmland before it reached its destination.
Military aircraft only need a few minutes to be in the air over Washington and New York.....so where were they?
I tend to back myself up into a very tight common sense corner, when a lot of rumours hit the world wide web, and i like to see choice in elections.
I dont believe all rumours about " The Skull and Bones Society", but am concerned that they named their H.Q. at Yale university "The Tomb", which doesn't inspire confidence!
Also both George W. Bush and Senator John Kerry are members, so i wonder if the voters of the most powerful country in the world, had an electional choice at the last presidential election.
There is a "Demolay boys club" in America which shows the link to "De Molay", the last grand master of the Knights Templar, easy to find official web-sites on the web, and you can check by web link that i put in to my concerns about the English flag, a few thread sections back.
Yet i wouldnt want a "witch hunt" to start as i feel 98% of all associations are spiritual and are not involved with politics, but we only have to read up on "The Golden Dawn order", to have doubts, power can corrupt!
Everyone is innocent till proven guilty, but i would like to see the end result of this credible newspaper report, hopefully all lawsuits will be proved groundless.
www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
Dont ask, c'os i'm not going to go further down a political track than that!
On your other questions, yes Neptune can have other symbolic meanings other than surrender, but seems apt for a surrender document.
The burning of the library at Alexandria was deliberate, but history is hazy during this time, so we dont know who to blame.
And lastly, yes most of my fixed star knowledge comes from Bernadette Brady, but i dont know if she would agree with some of my observations.

Before 1900, i find actual times dubious, but the best account i can find of President Lincoln's assassination is as follows:-
Friday 14th April 1865, Ford's Theatre, District of Columbia, Washington D.C., Lat. 38*N54', Long. 77*W00'.
"The Presidential party arrived at Ford's about 20:30pm. Armed with a single shot derringer and a hunting knife, Booth arrived at Ford's at about 21:30pm., Joseph Burroughs, a boy who worked at the theatre, held his horse in the rear alley.
Booth went next door to a saloon for a drink. He entered the front of Ford's Theatre around 22:07pm., slowly he made his way towards the State Box where the Lincoln's were sitting with Clara Harris and Henry Rathbone.
Lincoln's bodyguard, John Parker of the Metropolitan police force, had left his post.
At about 22:15pm., Booth opened the door to the State Box, and shot Lincoln in the back of the head at near point-blank range. He struggled with Rathbone and stabbed him in the arm, after which he jumped approx. 11ft. to the stage below.
If you set up a chart for 22:15pm., you will find Asc. at 09*45' Sag., and "again" the Moon on an angle at 09*13' Sag.

911, it took only hours to land EVERY Plane in America, that is EXTRAORDINARY

It still took time to figure out that there WERE OTHER planes that were hi jacked Simultaneously. Of the Two othe rPlanes Hi Jacked, in One, the passengers took matters into their own hands to save others lives,

in the ohter, passengers were attempting to RETAKE the plane that was headed for either the capitol building or white house, they are close enough together that it is debatable which was the exact target, the target was CHANGED because the hijackers knew the jig was up and pinted the plane at the first thing they saw.

The Pentagon suffered a lot less damage than it would have because of whatever was happening on board that plane, they did NOT make contact as they would have wanted to with careful aim, AND because of the construction techniques of that building.


As for the towers, sorry, the video of the towers going down at the time they went down, while I was home watching it, was 2 passenger planes, there were no small aircraft anywhere in sight. The nonsense about cell phones that same group is spouting is certainly nonsense as my ex BF, a pilot called me from his cell all the time while flying its one of the stupider FCC regulations that you turn off your cell phone while flying, best reception you can get and it doesn't do jack to the plane, its just a stupid law you ought ot follow if you dont want FCC morons to be harrassing you when you get off the plane.

If they are going to have conspiracy theories i wish they would at least come up with more plausible stuff.

Granny

I saw a more than plausible documentary not some naff crap off the internet. Lead by a credible American journalist. Shortly after this footage was out there suddenly became a clamour for the Patriot Act AND Bush decided the American people had seen enough of the footage and it was thus time they moved on. Now we only see dying embers. Never the plane going in. The wing span of the alleged Jetliner was 52 metres. The wingspan of the dent in the Pentagon was much smaller. Scientific evidence weighs heavily against a Jetliner crashing into the Pentagon. It would have obliterated it. Whereas the damage was commensurate with a drone. As for cell phone calls no-one is disputing that those passengers thought they were being hijacked and lost their lives but how?

I don't do conspiricy theories but then again I don't do propaganda either.

Funny how they managed to find Mohammed Attas passport in the Twin Towers disaster innit?

Thanks Skippy,
As you know i try to be diplomatic, and i will have a go at the U.K. government as well, but i truly am sincere with the American Voting Public, i am just sorry that they wasn't protected on 11th September 2001.
There are are lot of very very good astrologers on this forum, that after about 20 very powerful messages by myself....couldnt find a way to attack my research, obviously moderators are worried by world events, so i get a little bit of ground to work within, which i respect them for, but don't expect them to get involved, thats not their aspirations, but obviously they and i know if i get out of the centre of opinion, i will get slaughtered, but i agree with that!
If i was to do a collective consciousness vote in satisfaction with how our leaders deal with sensitive issues regarding beliefs and religion, i would think it wouldn't come out in favour, within the political spectum, we have to get our heads out of the sands....things are getting very difficult, and could holt our spiritual progress.
I do keep up with physics and every year our knowledge with computers and science has huge progress. Nothing that is discovered remains a secret for long, and if people are willing to sacrifice themselves, using their bodies with explosives, in strange suicide pact's, we must realise that there is a bad sickness within our collective consciousness, and we need to try to understand why!
But trying to understand, may cause pain with our values, our governments, and how things were done before.
We earned a lot of money by trading weapons with Iraq, and indeed Bin Laden wasnt always someone that we wouldnt trade with.
The single thing that joins us all together is leaving a better world for our children, and we have to really get going to achieve that!

Wings are Fragile and they fold, and crumble. they are already tilted back in their construction, there is no way that the wing span would be the same once it hit a building as it would fold in on itself.

Maybe you dont recall that there was a Journalist on board the flight that went into the Pentagon, speaking to her husband on her cell?

And while there are a large number of reasons that I blame W for the events of 911, and even a large number of ways I think he is responsible, I dont think we need to manufacture more reasons than there already are.

This bit of conspiracy theory just takes away from the more basic and appalling grotesque behavior of the man and creates sympathy for him. trying to get him re-elected, despite the two term limits?

Granny

The wingspan of the alleged crash where the passengers ambushed the raiders didn't bend or buckle. Nor did the wingspan of the Towers which was made of far sterner stuff than the Pentagon. The tanks would have obliterated the entire building in exactly the same way the Plane that hit the ground did. The plane had just taken off with full tanks. They both allegedly crashed and burned into the Pentagon. However the Drone needed a large bomb underneath it to penetrate the Twin Towers in the manner that it did. That tells you just how strong the buildings were made. Hark back to the van bomb. Hardly dented it's interiors really.

I'd have to watch the documentary again to answer the question about the journalist. I don't think it is covered. As it is a documentary presented in serious manner. It isnt stating anything other than the facts as recorded and photographed at the time. It leaves the viewer to decide what they want to think. My friend reckons they were just all disposed of then the plane destroyed.

I certainly don't think it gives sympathy for either Bush or Bin Laden. Whilst I empathise with the plight of the Palestinians for whom this war cry is in the name of, their demands are increasingly irrational and thus unresovable. As usual one will tire and the other will capitualate after much bloodshed and the lining of many greedy pockets. One side will profit and I doubt it will be the ones who are losing their lives fighting on either side in this whichever way the choose to battle.

Skippy I just edited a small descriptive comment from your post. This wasn?t central and was capable of being found objectionable by some of our members.

I think Monk is doing a tremendous job here, touching upon all these controversial political situations and yet remaining very reasonable and unprovocative in his tone. Obviously people will want to pick up and extend some of his points but it?s important that we don?t go too far away from the relevant astrological discussion. If that should happen here and there, it?s especially important to avoid potentially inflammatory remarks, otherwise the worthier merits of this information packed thread will be undermined. I hope everyone will understand this because I would like to give this thread the space it needs to develop in an informative way.

Deb

Now we only see dying embers. Never the plane going in. The wing span of the alleged Jetliner was 52 metres. The wingspan of the dent in the Pentagon was much smaller.

Airplanes or any other vehicle that crashes into a wall do not leave imprints in the building like they do in a cartoon. The impact destroys the building and the vehicle, and subequent damage resulting from the fire distorts the impact area.

And while there are a large number of reasons that I blame W for the events of 911, and even a large number of ways I think he is responsible, I dont think we need to manufacture more reasons than there already are.

George Bush was inaugurated on January 20, 2001. The plot to crash airplanes into buildings was in planning for several years prior. We know this from the public testimony and prosecutors evidence at the recent trial and conviction of an insider, whose name escapes me (starts with an M). The idea that, had someone else been President for those nine months the attacks never would have occurred is spurious. W wasn't President during the first attempt at attacking the WTC or the second, or when the USS Cole was attacked, nor was he the President when the Marine barracks were attacked by Hezbollah in Lebanon in the 1980s, or when this war began in 1979 when Iran did something Adoplh Hitler didn't dare do, violate the sanctity of an embassy. History began prior to September 11, 2001 and even before January 20, 2001.

And for the record, there is little or nothing in the Patriot Act that didn't exist elsewhere in American law prior to its enactment. The primary purpose of the act was to eliminate the "wall" that existed between American domestic and International law enforcement. The FBI was not allowed to share information with the CIA and vice versa under the guise of preserving our civil liberties. This "wall" was erected by Jamie Gorelick, an assistant to the US Attorney General, Janet Reno during the Clinton Administration. If we want to look for conspiracies, let us wonder why Gorelick sat on the 9/11 commission rather than being interogated by it. The most plausibe reason for her infamous memo creating the wall is that they were actively trying to hide illegal campaign contributions from overseas to that lovable rogue Bill Clinton.

Lest anyone wish to bring up the over-used example of the Patriot Act allowing examination of public library records, the word "libraries" is never mentioned in the Act and law enforcement has always been allowed to do just that. It was done in California's Zodiac murder case in the 1960s and 70s, and in our own domestic terrorist case, the Una Bomber. Even conpsiracy theories have to fit the facts.

Tom

Tom
You always make me laugh. Lovable rogue indeed. Why is that? Venusian charm eh? Anyway what was my point... ah yes Juno or whether it is more than likely the usual classical planets involved. Hmm Yes...

The Patriot Act
Well... rushed through it was. (I sound like that geezer of Star Wars.) Why? ID cards YOU WILL have in the UK. Its about breeding fear and being able to control us.

You echo a moot point I raised. However, the van bomb on the Towers and the one in Kenya IS more what a Terr'ist is capable of. IRA stylee.
You don't seriously expect me to believe that they ambushed a full jetliner with diddy plastic forks do you. Like that has ever been done before. Yes I know people have hijacked planes before usually when all the passengers have got off and they over power the very few crew left on board refusing to leave the plane unless their demands have been made. We saw what? How many many baddy Arabs board those planes?
Two baddy muslims for each plane do you really expect us to believe this?

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories, i may be long winded in my approach, i am sorry it is going to take me a long time to get to the point, but be assured i will get there.
Firstly i wish to address the problem of what we as astrologers would call scapegoats, and the problem of pointing the finger.
I feel the first problem to be addressed is the human race is composed of two ingredients " The Female essence" and the "Male essence".
I am a male but life is composed of this fact!
We need the aggressive male essence in many ways that has nothing to do with war, even getting up in the morning, at an early hour to earn money to feed our complicated lifestyles need aggression, and the need to be focused.
But we know our days set problems that need this focus of separating the day into small individual areas which we concentrate on, solve the problem, and move on to the next problem.
I would say this comes from the male essence, who are able to do this naturally, which is a good factor, but if i would make an observation, most of females would say that there is a big picture.
Most females, to men can seem more indecisive, but that means they look more towards the whole picture, so hesitate!
If i would look at the times that the human race experienced suffering, i would have to say this is because of concentrating in a focused way on a small bit of a problem, without looking further to the big picture, which i may add corresponds to nuturing....sorry....this is a fact!
We may, in a good natured way, experience this in male and female drivers.
Males may impress with how they concentrate in showing their skills in driving, and may show a degree of impatence with the hesitant female driver.....but insurance policies show that .....sorry guys....our premiums are higher, and it is fact that insurance is lower for "Females"!
As i am dealing with very difficult area's of religion and our spiritual aspirations, i wish to inject a bit of humour, as i am a male, and could be scapegoated for bringing this up!
Obviously, the girls are laughing, they have found a male to admit it!
But scapegoating isnt the answer, it builds up and can hurt us in a cyclic way.
Recently we have found an ancient scroll that is carbon dated, and verified as coming from the early centuries A.D.
I'm a wary of strong focused religious beliefs, and although i obviously value all the holy people who started these religions, although i am hesitating, i would have to say, records of "The Message" has been done by purely humans with all their faults!
If we scapegoat any religious beliefs we can hardly wonder why the Jewish collective message, which i dont agree with is so strong at the moment.
The term "Wandering Jew" is because the Christian ideology is founded on Judas....and discriminations that go back 2000 years!
Recently we carbon dated a scroll that is the "Gospels according to Judas"
And although i wish not to promote controversy, we would have to admit that we have only just started investigating the flavour of the early centuries A.D. with a scientific approach.
We know that the message of Jesus is prone to human interpretation, and we as astrologers, know that agreeing to suffer as a scapegoat, as Jesus did, promotes a strong message.
It may be that Judas was asked as a valued disciple to act out this traitor role in order to expand the very powerful message.
I am going to see what opinions are before i expand this thread!