astralwanderer wrote:Hi there - you will find the option under the Data menu, Planetary Scores Analysis. This is in the Medieval Chart module.

Thank you Sir. Really appreciate everything you do for this wonderful software.

Sorry, I just want to comment on this as this is the Master of Nativity thread.

I am holding in my hand Mrs. Demetra George bool volume 2.

In her book on page 1055, anyone has the book can flip to that page and see it yourself.

Ptolemy, but Ptolemy the only one who allow Sun in 9th and Moon in 3rd to be the Predominator, due to Sun has Joy in 9th, and Moon has Joy in 3rd. And ofcouse go by Sect light which I am daychart so my Sun qualify.

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Now to Dorotheus method.
If Sun and Moon both are in cadent houses, like my chart, Sun in 9th and Moon in 12th. It go to Ascendant, BUT
Here the BUT here.
On page 1064, you can flip to the page to see it yourself.

It said in order for the Ascendant to qualify, if not qualify then you do NOT have a Predominator.
In order for Ascendant to qualify, the ascendant must witness by any of its lords. Answer yes or No, and if answer No. Then you do NOT have a Predominator.

Sorry, my Moon in 12th CANNOT witness my Cancer Ascendant in the 1st house when that Moon is in the 12th house. 12th house is aversion to 1st house, as so 8th house is also aversion to the 1st house.

So basically go by Dorotheus meothod, I do NOT have a Predominator.

Then on page 1051, I will quote from the book: "the Predominator go to Ascendant (if Sun and Moon in cadent), BUT Ascendant bound lord must be investigated to see if it can confirm the Ascendant a the releaser, the Ascendant MUST be witnesses by it bound lord.

This is not Demetra words, she quote this from Dorotheus and Ptolemy.

So clearly I don't have a Predominator then, because my Ascendant ruler the Moon in 12th CANNOT witness my 1st house Cancer Asc.

Ptolemy is the only one that I can have one, which he said Sun in 9th count because Sun in Joy house. And 9th house Trine 1st house Ascendant just like 5th house Trine it.

Btw, these are NOT Demetra words, she quote it from Dorotheus and Ptolemy.

fromChina wrote:Btw, these are NOT Demetra words, she quote it from Dorotheus and Ptolemy.

I haven't seen Demetra George's book, but if she says that Ptolemy allows the moon in the 3rd to be hyleg/aphetes, she is wrong.
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/ ... B*.html#10

Regarding Dorotheus' method, please note that 'bound lord' is some people's way of saying 'ruler of the terms', not of the sign/domicile. The term ruler will always be one of the non-luminary planets.

Martin Gansten wrote:

fromChina wrote:Btw, these are NOT Demetra words, she quote it from Dorotheus and Ptolemy.

I haven't seen Demetra George's book, but if she says that Ptolemy allows the moon in the 3rd to be hyleg/aphetes, she is wrong.
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/ ... B*.html#10

Regarding Dorotheus' method, please note that 'bound lord' is some people's way of saying 'ruler of the terms', not of the sign/domicile. The term ruler will always be one of the non-luminary planets.

I'm sorry, you right Sir, it on page 1055, sorry English is my third language, she said Ptolemy are the ONLY one allow the 9th house to be the Predominator due to the Trine of 9th to 1st (1st, 5th, 9th are Trine houses to Ascendant).

Example Sun in 9th in a Daychart would count as Predominator, since Sun in Joy house.

Opps, I assume that mean Moon in Joy house in 3rd count too, but you are right, she didn't say Moon in 3rd.

However she said Ptolemy discard ALL the houses "Below" the horizon,
and clearly disqualify the 8th and 12th house (on the upper horizon) due to the Aversion to Ascendant.

Ptolemy however the only one allow 9th house which is a Cadent house due to the Trine to 1st house.

So my apology Sir. I misread.

This is the problem of my chart, my Sun in 9th that should count if use Ptolemy. Other methods not count.

My Moon in 12th so that automatic disqualify, ALL methods agreed to that as 12th house is the weakest and worst house. Plus the Aversion to 1st house.

By that would default it to my Ascendant. BUT they forget the Moon is the ruler of my Ascendant.
So that Moon in 12th cannot aspect to 1st house at.all. Aversion, can't see.

So only Ptolemy method would give me a Predominator (my Sun in 9th).

Even if I go with the bound lord of my Ascendant which is 12 degrees Cancer which is in Venus bound. My Venus is 8th, meaning the bound lord of my Ascendant (Venus in 8th) is aversion to my 1st house too.

Basically I'm stuck.

Unless I use Midheaven, which Valens allow if Sun, Moon, Ascendant all fail.

I'm determine to get to the bottom of this, I just have to figure out my Predominator, even if it means I don't have one.

You see both my Ascendant degree and my Moon degree are under Venus bound, whether it the Moon in 12th or Venus in 8th, it cannot aspect to 1st house Cancer.

Mrs. Dementra book, she summary the methods and she ask this when use the Ascendant as the default for Predominator when Sun and Moon not qualify.
She asked, quote in her book: "Is the Ascendant witnessed by any of its lords in the appropriate manner? Yes or No.
If answer No, then you don't have a Predominator." Because clearly mine is a No.

So my last option is Sir Valens method where he allow the Midheaven to be the Predominator (or that Sun in 9th by Sir Ptolemy). AmI cursed or what, I have like the worsest chart.
my wheel:

Personally I don't use the tropical zodiac, so the chart I would see would be different, but putting that to one side for now, I think most Greek- and Arabic-language authors would have agreed that in a chart such as the one given here, the Asc in Cancer would be hyleg/aphetes/epikratetor (the last word is the one that some translate as 'predominator'), and Jupiter (its exaltation ruler), or possibly Mars (its secondary triplicity ruler), would be alcochoden/oikodespotes. I don't remember anyone stating that the Asc can't be hyleg just because its domicile ruler is badly placed.

Depending on which authorities you want to rely on (and there really is very little material on this preserved in Greek: even the Dorotheus we have is in Arabic), other points may also be considered potential hylegs, particularly the Lot of Fortune and the prenatal syzygy. The syzygy would be cadent in Pisces, but the Lot would be (more or less) angular in Libra and aspected by its domicile ruler Venus. Manetho even allows for the ruler of the nativity (that is, a non-luminary planet) to be aphetes/hyleg under certain circumstances, as does Ptolemy (and Balbillus, come to that). But only Ptolemy attempts to give a systematic set of rules for the purpose.

Later edit: Just to be clear, I meant that Ptolemy and Balbillus both allow a non-luminary planet to be the aphetes. They do not specifically refer to that planet as the ruler of the nativity.

Martin Gansten wrote:Personally I don't use the tropical zodiac

Thank you Sir Gansten for your help, it is an honor to have a Moderator help read my chart to help me find the predominator. So thank you so so much.

May I ask, since you said you don't use the tropical zodiac, so I'm guessing you mean by that is you prefer Vedic? Because we have tropical, Vedic, Chinese zodiac, etc..

I'm sorry I want to post this as it related to the thread topic, and just in case I misunderstood what the book said, as English is my third language, and I have Pisces Mercury, I don't even think that Gemini Moon can save me from that Pisces Mercury, lol.

In Mrs. Demetra book, she said if you chose one method to follow you have to follow it to the end, you cannot mixed and match, period. whether it Porphyry, Valens, Dorotheus, chose one and stick with it!

As to Sir Dorotheus method, my chart clearly don't have a Predominator. I use my phone to take pictures of the pages, I include below to backup what I said.

According to DOROTHEUS method to find the Predominator, my Sun and Moon in cadent does not qualify, go to Fortune then Ascendant in that order. So it go to Ascendant in my case. BUT, here the BUT,
he also said clearly in there, that the Ascendant must be witness it 'bound' lord, or else that Ascendant does not qualify as the Predominator, meaning it just a chart that does not have a Predominator.

My Ascendant bound lord is Venus, and my Venus in 8th house, 8th house CANNOT communicate or aspect to 1st house. My Venus in 8th cannot aspect my 1st house Ascendant.
Same with the ruler of my Ascendant, that Moon of mine in 12th, 1st house Cancer CANNOT see the 12th house at all, so that Moon cannot aspect or communicate with the 1st house neither.

Either way (the Asc bound lord or the Asc ruler), according to Dorotheus method, my chart is a chart without a Predominator. It clearly said right there on the second and fourth screenshot: "If the ascendant is not witness by any of its lord, then you do not have a Predominator). So if go by "Dorotheus" method, that is my result.

Am I read this right? The book pages below:

To answer your first question, I use a sidereal definition of the zodiac. It's the same zodiac (Aries, Taurus, etc.); the question is just how to define the starting point. Babylonian, Graeco-Egyptian, Perso-Arabic, and even some medieval European astrologers all used what we would call a sidereal zodiac, so there is nothing inherently Indian (or 'Vedic') about it.

I'm not the moderator of this forum, but I'm inclined to think that posting those excerpts as part of the discussion qualifies as fair use.

The Dorotheus text as we have it (which is an Arabic translation and may be interpolated in places) allows for five different kinds of rulers to aspect the hyleg, including the decan ruler. It then gives an example where the term ('bound') ruler is the aspecting planet, but that is still just one option. So in your chart, from a tropical perspective, the possibilities are as I stated in my previous post (not including the decan ruler, which I doubt was part of the original Greek version).

I also want to address the idea that you are not allowed to mix authorities. If we are just playing a game here, that's a perfectly reasonable attitude, but if we are trying to understand (a) what ancient astrologers actually did, and/or (b) what actually works in practice – in this case, what method will reliably allow you to predict the length of life – then such restrictions seem counterproductive to me. It is precisely by comparing statements by different authors and experimenting with their methods that we are likely to get anywhere at all.

I understand Sir. Thank you for explain it to me.

I personally always prefer Vettius Valens over Dorotheus, because Velans is an actual astrologer. With Velans method, I do have a Predominator. As Valens said, if Sun and Moon are cadent, then to the "Degree" of the Ascendant or Midheaven.

I'm assuming the 'Degree' here Valens means the Bound lord, in my case Venus is the bound lord of my Ascendant. And Venus is in Mars bound, and Mars is the first planet that cast his rays on her by Square her hard at exactly 0 orb.

Ptolemy method is even easier as he allows the Sun in 9th to be the Predominator as 9th house TRINE 1st house. But Dementra said he the ONLY astrologer that allow that, the rest doesn't allow any cadent houses.

In Dementra book she talks about different methods, Porphyry, Pletomy, Valens, Dorotheus, Paulus, etc..

Out of those astrologers/philosophers, do you have one that you prefer over the other when it comes to determine the Predominator method Sir?

eta: May I ask, what house system do Valens use?

I did try my chart in Placidus, Equal House, Porphyry even, Whole sign. And same results, Venus in 8th, Moon in 12th, Mars Saturn in 5th, Sun Mercury in 9th, Jupiter in 7th.
It seem like I not have much of a choice. I don't have any planet in 1st, empty 1st house, nor 10th or 11th house.

fromChina wrote:I personally always prefer Vettius Valens over Dorotheus, because Velans is an actual astrologer.

There is nothing to suggest that Dorotheus wasn't one too. Perhaps you are thinking of Ptolemy, who doesn't include any worked examples?

With Velans method, I do have a Predominator.

You do by Dorotheus' method too, as the (tropical) ascendant is aspected by its exaltation ruler, and the Lot of Fortune (if we accept that as angular) by its domicile ruler.

I'm assuming the 'Degree' here Valens means the Bound lord,

No, I don't think so. I haven't looked up the place in the Greek text, but 'degree' probably means exactly what it says. The degree of the hyleg is needed for two things: to determine the ruler of the terms and, more crucially, to calculate its directions.

Ptolemy method is even easier as he allows the Sun in 9th to be the Predominator as 9th house TRINE 1st house. But Dementra said he the ONLY astrologer that allow that, the rest doesn't allow any cadent houses.

That depends on how many authors you include. Many who came after Ptolemy (writing in Greek or Arabic) accepted his views wholly or partly. And some of the earlier Greek authors only give very brief sketches of their methods.

Out of those astrologers/philosophers, do you have one that you prefer over the other when it comes to determine the Predominator method Sir?

No, not really. I'm keeping an open mind on the length-of-life issue, but it is one that interests me a great deal.

May I ask, what house system do Valens use?

That's a real hornet's nest, but if you read his work closely, I think the picture that emerges is that he thought quadrant houses (what would be called the Porphyry system today) were the most accurate but was usually content with an approximation by whole signs.

I thought Valens was the oldest dated back to his work 2000 years ago. And later centuries other astrologers add stuff to their rules of finding the Predominator.

Thank you Sir for answer my question. One last question Sir, since English is my third language so I want to make sure I understand this right. Here is the pic of the pages in Dementra book where she said about Valens method.

He clearly said in there the Degrees of the Ascendant or to the Midheaven (if Sun and Moon in cadent). Degrees here I can only think of the bound lord of my Asc which is Venus.

This is from Dementra books: