One topic ("The Lot") about Auguste Bouché-Leclercq motivated me to create this topic... The idea of Zodiac Sign seems seems very arbitrary to me, but what can I say, I am new to astrology.

(If you had to make a social experiment and talk to people in order to guess their signs, what would be your accuracy rate?... By the way, a doctor could correctly guess a person's diseases without laboratory tests? Have we become blind?)

I do not expect to have my rambling answered (I would guess most of it is common sense). But I would appreciate some references and guidance (authors, books) to help me in my journey. That is why I've felt the need to explain where I am coming from. I am trying to think things through from the scratch, even though it is just an outline.

The idea of the Hermetic Lots seem very appealing to me (I still did not fully understand it though), but are there astrologers out there that go beyond and do not take the Zodiac Signs into much consideration? Are their a name for this "School of Thought", a more "scientific astrology" (scientific is a very loaded word, but anyway)?


1) Seasons.

Unless Tropical Astrology (TA) can give us a rationale for why, as a spectrum, an Aries is different (at least a little) in the extremes (north and/or south) and in the middle (equator), TA doesn't make any sense.

In theory, we could still understand that as a 12 signs system, but only as in a continuum (the more north and/or south the more different in something each sign is)¹.
That would make sense, afterall, in anthropology we can make some different conclusions (behaviorally) about those that live in the extremes.

¹[In this case, two sub-theories is possible:
a) 24 sub-signs:
The middle ("no seasons") is the baseline (in this case, "the negative") and north and south would be considered the same variation ("the positive") of this sign, but only when in the same season (reversed signs).
b) 36 sub-signs:
The middle ("no seasons") is the baseline, but north would be one variation ("the positive") of this sign and south another ("the negative").]

However, I do not want to start a flame war here. This is not what I came to discuss in this subtopic.


Nevertheless, as I've already pointed it out, it is very intuitive and reasonable to presume that the seasons somebody was born would influence his/her life.

It is only natural that the seasons (and the phases of the moon as well) should be a "Sign" (let's forget the "Zodiac Signs" for a moment) of its own. But now we have the same problem as before:

a) From a Tropical Perspective, as I've already said, it is the obvious: "signs" according to seasons (north-south timing differences).
b) From a Sidereal Perspective, the Earth is the closest to the Sun ("perihelion") in early January (and the fastest as well), even though it is winter in the north. In this perspective:

²[Regardless of the fact that the distance from the Sun, even though its orbit is elliptical, has very little influence on seasons, from an astrological perspective, it is very symbolic.]

If months (Earth's translation) were in a clock (Earth's rotation), (early) January would be 12³ (noon). It would be our north???.

³[By the way, the moon would also be 12 (midnight) (we might have to use a 24 hour clock). And July would be 06 o'clock (sunset or sunrise?)... We would think it would be in the solstices months (December and June; where the sun is at its lowest/highest in the northern/southern sky/analemma), but it is asymmetrical, the perihelion and aphelion happen a little later.]
???[We could also argue that the Galactic Center (GC) is our north, but it is curious because, if I am not mistaken, GC and early January are about two weeks apart... By the way, if I am right, it would mean the Sun trajectory through the GC is very close to the December solstice.]

From there we can make all kinds of deductions (for instance, if we have a 24 hour clock with 12 on top and 24 on bottom: now the Sun has its Joy in the tenth house, and if that is true, then Moon has its Joy in the fourth house, if that is true then...).


Even if we go the route to explain the difference between someone born in the summer in the north and in the south hemisphere as a variation of the same zodiac sign we also have some astronomical facts/principles to explain/enhance the symbolism.


Maybe we should consider the seasons of other planets as well (except Mercury)... For instance, Mars in the first House means something, Mars in the Summer in the first House means something and more.

Maybe we can say that Sun at noon is very martian (contradicting myself earlier when it was very sunnier), very harsh: even if Mars is not in a prominent place in the chart, its prominence comes through the sun's behavior (now Mars has its Joy in the tenth, while the Sun would probably be in the first).


2) Full/Empty.

If we can say that the Full Moon is the Moon in all its splendor and glory, maybe we can extend this logic to all the other planets.

The fuller they are the positivier they are (the opposite is also true).

The planets (male, even Venus???) start to be very harsh when they are own its own (opposite to its moon/s). They need the moon (their own or Earth's) to help them to tone it down, to give some nurture, some enjoyment/relaxation.
The moons (female) start to spoil or vampirize too much when they are own its own (opposite to the sun or "its sun"). They need their planets (or the Sun) to help them to tone it up, to give some direction, some purpose.

???[They say Venus, for the Mayans, also had associations with war, and for the Sumerians, even though it was a Goddess, and similar to the Romans', had justice/retribution significations as well...
Maybe it is very simplistic to say planets are "male" and moons "female" (I am not denying Venus associations with "desire", "passion", "beauty", "relationship"), but it can be a start, I guess (although, in a way, we can say that all planets are females when comparing to the Sun, and that Mercury could be androgynous because it looks like Sun's moon and Venus because of its dual nature).
Mercury is the playful child, Venus the whimsical teenager, Mars the impulsive/impetuous young adult, Jupiter the bold/astute late adult and Saturn the restrained grandfather (all variations of the same idea)... But now I digress.]

I tend to incline with those who says that, in a sense, there are are no good or bad planets (they are all good and bad), but only bad Houses, Aspects and bad planets relationship with each other.

By the way, shouldn't the terrestrial planets be from the earth, the gas giants from the air and the ice giants from the water element? Then, Sun and Mars could be fire and moon included in water (Pluto I do not know).

I mean, now we can take this idea from the Zodiac Signs put them into the planets and make a relationship between them out of that.


3) Stars.

As we all know, Sirius (so worshiped in ancient civilizations) is more bright in the sky than Saturn. (How many of you consider Sirius in your astrological charts?)

Shouldn't we calculate the average apparent magnitude in the sky when someone is born? While we are at it, how about to count the stars in the sky as well (by the way, are there more stars in the center, right, left... can this mean something as well?)?

The symbolism here is pretty clear. I will skip this part. I am just saying we should, ideally, pay attention to all the 88 constellations (the planets are more important though).

Even for planets... For instance, maybe we can say, for a birth chart, when Venus shows up in the night means something, in the day means something else.

Maybe we can say everything which is seeable in the sky when we were born is related to our conscious and that which is not is related to our unconscious...

All I am saying is that we must construct the symbolism OURSELVES.

[I must say... I do not know what to make of the fact that, from our perspective on Earth, the Zodiac Signs turn clockwise throughout the day, but counter-clockwise throughout the year... It is wise to take the microcosm and project into the macrocosm, but death in the eighth House makes no sense... From a day perspective it must be in the seventh (sunset... which could also mean going home, "home", instead of the fourth). From a year perspective it must be in the fourth (lowest point).
This idea of Houses (angular, succedent, cadent) are very ingenious and logical, but some significations can be questionable.]


4) Sun's Declinations.

If the Sun is up in the Celestial Equator when in Capricorn to Libra, shouldn't these be considered the "positive" (male, day, sunny) Zodiac Signs?
Or the "positives" should be the upward ones (Scorpius to Gemini)?

I do not know what these would mean, but anyway, it would mean something. If we could project some Signs' features from there it would make more sense.

(By the way, for the life of me, I can't understand why this happens.)

One more thing. Ouranos said in another topic:

"Uranian astrologers consider the *Aries Point as the Sun's node*, the intersection of the ecliptic and Earth's equator meaning that an individual as he relates to the world or the general public."

I've just wanted to point this out because this means that the March Equinox is the Sun's north node (Rahu) while the September Equinox is the Sun's south node (Ketu). This means all planets (and moons) have that. Interesting... I had never realize that.
Furthermore, the ASC is the chart's north node while the DSC is the chart's south node. This is a good way to conceptualize.

By the way, shouldn't the day the Galactic Equator crosses the Celestial Equator also have some significance (Galactic north and south nodes)?



If this topic is very loaded and confused I want you to know that I have tough skin. I do not mind reading fierce opposing positions. I understand. Specially because I am new into this.

Another idea came to mind.

Let's say Saturn's orbital period is 122 times greater than Mercury's...

What if this means that Mercury's zone of influence (arc) is 122 times less than Saturn's in the chart.

(Of course, nothing is equal in this world, volume and matter should matter as well, not only distance. It is just a line of thought that I wonder if it makes sense for other people.)


Now let me expand on one idea already mentioned in the topic, but not clearly.

Let's say a planet is in its "fire" period when, in its elliptical orbit, its closer to the sun.

Now, if we say Mars is a "fire planet" (even though I've said that maybe terrestrial planets should be earth), we can say Mars has its joy when it is in this positional place in our Solar System.


Of course, it is just an example (people may ask: if everyone is compared to the sun, how, in this logic, can the sun be compared with itself!... But it is easy to think of other logic for Sun's place of joy).


People may say that I am trying to simplify astrology because I am talking in simplistic terms. However, I think I am trying to do just the opposite, except that I am not knowledgeable enough to do it (... yet!).


P.S.: I guess, if we consider the title, I've run off topic... I guess I'm trying to go beyond many things, not only Zodiac Signs, but the question remains: if we will take it off, what can we put it in its place... Can we really do it?

Certainly there are many possible ways to divide up a 360-degree circle. Which is a historical artefact. who says 360 degrees are inherently more meaningful than some other division, like a base-10 division into 100 segments?

Basically astrology follows the ancient Mesopotamian sexagesimal base-60 arithmetic system. 60 lends itself to a lot of divisions (2,3,4, 5, 6 10...) and multiplications. This system also appears in compass bearings and analog clocks.

What we have with 12 30-degree signs is also a historical artefact. The Babylonians initially used a "whole sky" astrology, with constellations on and off the ecliptic, but our 12-constellation ecliptic basically comes from them. Predicting eclipses was very important to the Babylonians, and around about 500 BCE they determined that dividing the geocentric cosmos into 12 30-degree sectors based on the ecliptic worked a lot better than working with constellations of uneven length.

Sidereal astrology such as Vedic (Hindu, jyotish) keeps a rough locational overlap between signs and the constellations for which they were named, but the tropical zodiac became noticeably out of synch in late Antiquity, and the gap has widened to this day, due to precession of the equinoxes.

I guess the question is whether some other system of dividing the heavens (or not dividing them) would give you better predictive and analytical results than the system we use today.

I am not sure one could call reading a chart without signs ''astrology'' because of, as Waybread writes, the science and art most of us practice use the ages old system, which as been amended and kept up to date (for instance, with psychological astrology in the near past) for thousands of years....so using a totally different system would mean you are probably on your own!

And that doesn't mean your system would not ''work.'' But as Waybread said, and this is paraphrasing....if it works, and you are accurate in your reading using this system, then go for it! If it doesn't, you might have your answers.

Keep records....and maybe in time you could use actual data that you have accumulated from giving readings, so that your ideas are not just speculation...interesting as they are.

A system either works for everyone who studies it, or it doesn't.

Good luck,

LYN

Uranian astrology with planetary pictures is a perfect example of a system that does not need the requirements of signs or constellations.
Just a mathematical-symmetrical system with equal sums (a+b), half sums (a+b)/2, differences (a-b) and sensitive points (a+b-c) with keywords for 'factors' or planets.
As for the Houses, 30 degrees each from the Cancer Point, 10th House Cusp, Moon, ASC, Lunar Node, Sun depending on what you are looking for.

I "believe" in God because it makes intuitive sense. But it does not mean I believe in this or that religion/precept (in this or in that "God").

The same goes for astrology.

It totally makes sense that there is a significance in being born in this or that day, this or that hour, and that we can find this significance in the sky.

But I've just can't "believe" in the things I read (but maybe I should probably just keep reading).

For instance (the last rambling haha), we've learned about the north and the south node of the moon and their significations.
But all planets have a north and a south node (even our Galaxy)... What if the north/south node of a planet is its exaltation/debilitation (or its Joy/)?
In our chart, shouldn't we treat the March Equinox as the Sun's north node and the September Equinox as the Sun's south node?

I mean, maybe we need to know when each planet crosses the Ecliptic.

Ouranos wrote:Uranian astrology with planetary pictures is a perfect example of a system that does not need the requirements of signs or constellations.

In a way, only after this topic I've found about Uranian Astrology, Cosmobiology, Neoastrology, Clockwise House System etc.

Only now I am actively searching for these and I will probably follow one of these schools/methods/paths (there are not much e-books availables though).

The good thing is that from reading some old topics here I've found some articles by Patrice Guinard (and others as well):

http://cura.free.fr/articles.html

It's been making a lot of sense in my mind (but if I had to guess, I would say nobody takes this guy seriously haha)... A lot of sense!

It's been such a delight.

However, like you are all saying, astrology should make sense not (only) in my mind, but in reality.

waybread wrote:I guess the question is whether some other system of dividing the heavens (or not dividing them) would give you better predictive and analytical results than the system we use today.

I agree. It must work!

I don't think I said I ''believe'' in astrology. It is not a religion. I have ''confidence in astrology because I have studied it and used it for over 40 years.

As I said, use you system, keep records, see if you are accurate when you give a reading. It will either bear out, or not!!

There are many kinds of ''divination''. At one time or another I tried several. Only astrology gave me the satisfaction and results I needed.

I identified with the ''metaphorical language'' ...replete with signs, houses, aspects, planets. Now I am pretty good at the language of astrology.

BUt as I said, that's just ME. YOU should follow your intuition and see if it works!
LYN

Lyn wrote:I don't think I said I ''believe'' in astrology. It is not a religion. I have ''confidence in astrology because I have studied it and used it for over 40 years.

My bad. But I was not referring to you.

I was just explaining my feeling being analog to those exposed to a "religion" (because of their family/community), but not agreeing with its "dogmas", even though believing in God.

(Of course, in my case, there is no pressure whatsoever in following one astrological path or another.)

By the way, I agree with everything that was said here.

It's not only a matter of finding (or creating) a new astrological system (or "language"), but of seeing it works... And not only that, but seeing it works better than the previous system that I'm "attacking".

The good thing is that I can start from the Patrice Guinard "philosophical system/framework" and see how it goes in people that I know and people that are known.

Edit: I've been talking about Patrice Guinard in this topic so maybe it's implied that he does not value the Zodiac Signs, but it is not the case. I've mentioned him in the context that his system is very different.

1. Astrological Sign
The zodiac sign is a division of the 12 astrological signs. Each sign represents a different time period of the year. These signs are based off of the constellations of the stars and planets. There are 12 signs, each representing a different season. These seasons are represented by the sun's position in relation to the earth. The first sign is Aries, which begins March 21st and ends April 20th. The last sign is Pisces, which begins December 22nd and ends January 19th.
2. Sun Sign
Sun sign is the name given to the zodiacal sign that is determined by where the sun is located at the moment of birth. If someone was born between 2 am and 4 am they would have been born under the sign of Cancer. If someone was born after 4 pm they would have been born in Leo.
3. Moon Sign
Moon sign is the name given the zodiacal sign determined by where the moon is located at the moment the person was born. If someone was born before midnight they were born under the sign of Capricorn. If someone was born in the morning hours they were born under Aquarius.
4. Ascendant
Ascendant is the name given to a person's rising sign. It is the place in the sky that rises above the horizon at the moment of birth and determines what house of the horoscope the person is born under.
5. Midheaven
Midheaven is the name given to where the sun is located in the sky at the moment of birth, and is the highest point of the chart. It is the home of the ruling planet and the ruler of the ascendant.
6. Descendant
Descendant is the name given the lowest point of the chart, and is the place where the sun sets at the moment of birth (the opposite of the midheaven). It is ruled by the planet that is in the same house as the ascendant.
7. Houses
Houses are the divisions of the zodiacal chart. Each house represents a different area of life. There are four houses, two of them being the 1st and 8th. The 1st house is the house of self-expression, creativity, and personal power. The 8th house is the house of partnerships, marriage, and children.

VERTICAL MOVEMENT

The associations and significations mentioned below are very subtle because the vertical movement of the planets are more "spiritual", more "universal".

The fact that we do not measure the planet's latitudes from the ecliptic ("ecliptic system"), but from the celestial equator ("equatorial system"), is one physical indication of that (it is more "abstract", more hidden).

I've mentioned before this idea about the Sun's declination and recently I've found out that Patrice Guinard is coming from the same principles:
Link: http://cura.free.fr/25avazod.html#Note17
http://cura.free.fr/711zssen.html

But I come with a somewhat different conclusion/deduction.

Based only on this image, I will just mention the basic ones:

In general:

- The "positive"* ones (Aries to 30º Virgo) tend to be or to seem more "sunny", which means more open, expressive, clear, merry, forgiven, prolix... Often more loud, showoffish, extravagant.
- The "negative"* ones (Libra to 30º Pisces) tend to be or to seem more "lunar", which means more closed, secretive/reserved/stoic/mysterious, sly, serious, resentful, concise... Often more quiet, standoffish, miser.

*I am not sure the positives are masculines and the negatives are feminines. For now, I will keep the masculine/feminine signs unchanged.

Also:

- The upward ones (in theory Capricorn to 30º Gemini, but actually Sagittarius* to 30º Taurus) tend to be/seem more optimistic... Often more friendlier/tolerant, risk-averse (not Aries), collectivistic, conventional.
- The downward ones (in theory Cancer to 30º Sagittarius, but actually Gemini* to 30º Scorpio) tend to be/seem more pessimistic... Often more judgemental, risk-taking (not Libra), individualistic, eccentric.

*Gemini and Sagittarius are the exception because they are the turning points (they are the ones who turn the points):

- Gemini may be/seem very expressive, excitable and energetic, funny, shiny, sharp, but they are very dispersive, tiresome/weary, wacky, sad and offbeat.

Gemini senses the turning down, the fall of the sun (but they are not "dark"/serious, Virgo and Scorpio are, in that order... Libra, who sinks the sun downwards, is not "dark", he just likes the "dark", the comfy, he is the cosiness).

- Sagittarius may be/seem very reserved, watchful/apprehensive and lethargic, but they are very focused, fearless, balanced, confident and upbeat, determined, original, resourceful.

Sagittarius senses the turning up, the rise of the sun (but they are not "light"/playful, Pisces and Taurus are, in that order... Aries, who lifts the sun upwards, is not "light", he just likes the "light", the discovery, he is the pioneer/pathfinder).

[By the way, Late Sagittarius and Early Capricorn are also very intuitive/truthful because of where the Galactic Center (GC) is placed.]

- Aries is very impulsive (or maniac as a natural state), upfront, outgoing and agitated (because is the one who lifts the sun upwards). Likes to start projects. Usually indecisive/dissatisfied with the personal life.
- Libra is very peaceful (or depressed as a natural state), evasive, homy and quiet (because is the one who sinks the sun downwards). Likes to finish projects. Usually indecisive/dissatisfied with the business life.

- Pisces is very hopeful/optimistic, inventive/visionary, improviser and playful, and sometimes naive/ingenuous/innocent, spontaneous, flexible (not as much as Scorpio though, who is purposeful, ambitious and wants to get to the "bottom", to particularize) and sensitive to the "light" (very excitable, trustful, but also cheerful).
- Virgo is very fearful/pessimistic, perfectionist, planned/ready and serious/diligent, and sometimes shy/timid/suspicious, rigid, fixed (not as much as Taurus though, who is purposeful, ambitious and wants to get to the "top", to generalize) and sensitive to the "dark" (very watchful/apprehensive, skeptical, but also soothful).

Moreover:

- Fire (signs): Aries to 30º Gemini.
- Water (signs): Cancer to 30º Virgo.
- Earth (signs): Libra to 30º Sagittarius.
- Air (Signs): Capricorn to 30º Pisces.

12 signs exist only on a spectrum of these 4.

Furthermore:

- Aries and Taurus are 06 to 10 am.
- Gemini and Cancer are 10 am to 02 pm.
- Leo and Virgo are 02 to 06 pm.
- Libra and Scorpio are 06 to 10 pm.
- Sagittarius and Capricorn are 10 pm to 02 am.
- Aquarius and Pisces are 02 to 06 am.

Now we can make several deductions about the position of a clock as well... For instance, even though Leo is a Water sign (and the sun is not at its highest), he is around the hottest time of the day (03 to 04 pm). Gemini is in the hour where people are more likely to die (around 11 am). Etc., etc.

This will be important when I talk about planet's Domiciles... In the future I might make more associations with the "Chinese organ body clock" as well (I'd have to change the signs' hour-circle to odd numbers though).

Again, all of this is quickly based only on the symbolism associated with the position and velocity of the sun's declination.

Further down the line, the seasons is also important (I'd go as far as to say that if it was a very sunny, rainy day etc. is important as well), but this is not the idea of this topic.

TO BE CONTINUED...

Durahan wrote:The fact that we do not measure the planet's latitudes from the ecliptic ("ecliptic system"), but from the celestial equator ("equatorial system"), is one physical indication of that (it is more "abstract", more hidden).

It may be as well to keep the terminology clear: latitude is in fact what distance north or south of the ecliptic is called. Distance north or south of the equator is declination. The two are different.