Prof. Wolfgang Hübner examines in Hübner: Die Dodekatropos des Manilius (Manil. 2, 856 - 970) (Abhandlungen der Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur: Geistes- und sozialwissenschaftliche Klasse) - 1995 -

https://www.amazon.de

which house system Manilius uses and which house system was common in Manilius' time.

No surprise there - a quadrant house system beautifully researched on 105 pages.

https://www.youtube.com/@kosmologie-mik ... 663/videos

Hi Deb,

I liked your lecture in general, esp. its point about existence of whole sign charts. From Neugebauer and others, the remains are mostly simply lists of planets by (degree, sometimes, and) sign, *sometimes* with ascending degree noted. Perhaps where the ascendant was noted, there was a 'count off, by signs for mundane purposes, but that may not be a 'house system, in the sense of division of the heavens in terms of diurnal motion.

I would add that the graphs presented by CB about frequencies of all 'charts' and which/how-many contain an AS or and MC mark can be considered to weigh against the 'widespread WS use' thesis. Arguably, if we assume some awareness of culmination, 90 degree from AS is not bad approximation in the low latitude, *esp where a birth time is inexact, and we have only sufficient data to infer a probable rising sign. I'll call this a 'rough and ready' [applied to most existing and inferred 'charts' so called] hypothesis and I think it's worth looking at. A busy practitioner's quick and dirty stab at a culminating sign in the absence of data to get an exact figure for even the AS.

Along similar lines, the *absence* of MC specification is NOT good evidence for WS *system*: Surely the best evidence *for* [WS usage] would be as follows: 1) an actual chart, 2) with known AS degree 3) and a different 0 degree first house cusp noted and 4)with MC degree noted *and 5) MC pretty much ignored as to any significance beyond 'strength.' Ideally there would be an interpretation based on 6) an explicit taking of (AS minus 90) (nonagesimal) as a career or public life indicator. I have not seen such, but my impression is of extreme rarity, not prevalence

There are a number of points to be considered in the debate, and focus on personalities, who did what, when, and ascribed motives are simply distractions.

Post script.

As to my specification of a best chart supporting WS use, see in the Question: Survey thread, Paul's 6th post on Neugebauer's chart 95.

"There is not a single historical document from antiquity that provides historiographic evidence for the preferential and systematic use of whole-sign houses or justify the assumption of preferential use of a related whole-sign house system in ancient astrological practice."

is the thesis.

The arguments and documents provided by the WSH-Faith brethren are not , as of now, suitable to falsify that thesis. On the contrary - after the scientific - peer-reviewed paper:

Associate Professor Dr. Martin Gansten – Platikos and moirikos – Ancient Horoscopic Practice in the Light of Vettius Valens’ Anthologies – https://brill.com/view/journals/ijdp/4/ ... =pdf-63199 –

https://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/lucat/ ... e26362461d

I would like to see a scientific - peer reviewed paper - published by a scientific publisher - trying to falsify

"There is not a single historical document from antiquity that provides historiographic evidence for the preferential and systematic use of whole-sign houses or justify the assumption of preferential use of a related whole-sign house system in ancient astrological practice"

I haven't even seen any attempt to comment on or criticize Prof. Gansten's paper with academic standards. If there is one, please provide a link. - Instead, cancel culture, insults, defamation of character and defamation and out-of-context propaganda. And this fact is epistemologically very well relevant to the overall assessment of the WSH crusade against serious science.

And the same is true for the fact based Presentation by Deborah Houlding
https://vimeo.com/765620082/7d6469fe5b.

And I agree with Dr. Luis Ribeiro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A8DCjSaDBA

that we have a substantial problem in the Astrological Community.

The universal lack, with very few exceptions, of the ability to think critically prevents serious discourse from the outset.

And because of that I understand why serious scientists completely block out the cesspool level in the context of contemporary Astrology in social media from their perception and rightly demand academic standards. - In this context, my respect for Prof. Gansten for his effort to answer unserious Approaches seriously.

But this is the zeitgeist we suffer from - The Bolognascenery in European Universities (except Russia) and the US - Option of getting a B.A. in Genderstudies with 58 genders, embracing the idea that men can have babies and the option of changing your gender daily by thought is a significant problem in our societies. We better apply pre - Bologna - Standards. - But instead people in the US get jailed just for
expressing opinions that differ from the mainstream and government propaganda. - The next witch burning also in astrological contexts is already peeking around the corner and I see this in the beginnings of the WSH faith campaign and this context belongs to the overall perception of contemporary history in the context of a absolutist WSH approach that has long been disproved.

For that fact see:
Associate Professor Dr. Martin Gansten – Platikos and moirikos – Ancient Horoscopic Practice in the Light of Vettius Valens’ Anthologies – https://brill.com/view/journals/ijdp/4/ ... =pdf-63199 - 43 pages, a fully referenced, peer-reviewed scholarly work, critiqued by experts in the field, presented in an academic journal edited by the emminent Michael Lackner and Charles Burnett, and published by the leading international academic publisher, Brill.

And in this context:

My working hypothesis for the earliest use of Houses in the practice of Astrological Delineation in the 1st century CE:

"The first documented house-system in Antiquity is the Quadrant House System of Manilius".

s.Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Hübner - Universität Münster - Die Dodekatropos des Manilius (Manil. 2, 856 - 970) (Abhandlungen der Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur: Geistes- und sozialwissenschaftliche Klasse)

https://www.youtube.com/@kosmologie-mik ... 663/videos

and Whole Sign Houses do simply not exist in Manilius.

In this context the researchresults of Prof. Dr. Victor Stegemann might be interesting when he analyses the Eight-house system of Dorotheus.

Viktor Stegemann was a German classical philologist, Coptologist, and religious scholar. - In 1937 Stegemann habilitated at the University of Würzburg with a collection of fragments on the doctrinal poem of Dorotheos of Sidon (1st century A.D.)

Dorotheos of Sidon was a Greek astronomer and astrologer who lived in the first century AD and composed an astrological poem in five books. David-Edwin Pingree dated the horoscopes contained therein to the period around 50 A.D. Subsequently, they were translated into Middle Persian and Arabic in the third century A.D. The works of Dorotheos of Sidon form the first orderly compilation of Hellenistic sources in astrology, which in turn drew complementarily on writings of Petosiris, the Hermetica, and Zoroastrianism.

This extensive work had a great influence on ancient and medieval astrology. The Arabic translation contains Persian and Sanskrit terms, which prove the editorial revision as well as supplementation from the Middle Persian and Sassanid originals.

In the 20th century, Viktor Stegemann was able to translate only the first 57 of the extensive fragments that have survived to the present day.

Literature
David Pingree (ed.): Dorothei Sidonii carmen astrologicum. Teubner, Leipzig 1976.
David-Edwin Pingree: The Yavanaj??taka of Sphujidhvaja. Harvard University Press, Cambridge 1978, ISBN 0-674-96373-3, pp. 423-427.
Viktor Stegemann: The Fragments of Dorotheos of Sidon. Bilabel, Heidelberg 1939
Viktor Stegemann: The Fragments of Dorotheos of Sidon. Quellen und Studien zur Geschichte und Kultur des Altertums und des Mittelalters, Reihe B, Heft 1, Heidelberg 1943.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Stegemann

Dorotheos of Sidon and the so-called Introductorium of Sahl Ibn Bišr / Viktor Stegemann
Authors - Stegemann, Viktor *1902-1948* Identity. - Prague, 1942 - Archiv orientální. Monografie Archívu orientálního = Monographs of the Archiv Orientální ; 11

The fragments of Dorotheos of Sidon / by Viktor Stegemann - Lfg. 2 - Heidelberg : Bilabel, 1943 - Language/s: German, Ancient Greek (until 1453), Latin - pp. 73 - 140 - Schriftenreihe:
Sources and Studies on the History and Culture of Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Series B,

The astronomical calendar, a planetary chart for lay astrologers - Stegemann, Viktor - Munich, 1948

Astrology and Universal History. Studies and interpretations of the Dionysiaka of Nonnos of Panopolis. Leipzig 1930

Contributions to the History of Astrology. Heft 1: Der griechische Astrologe Dorotheos von Sidon und der arabische Astrologe Abu-'l-Ḥasan ʿAlī ibn-Abi-'r-Riǧ??l. Heidelberg 1935 (more not published)

Kleine Schriften zur Sternkunde des Altertums / Franz Boll. Ed. and ins. by Viktor Stegemann
Leipzig : Koehler & Amelang, 1950 - 450 Pages.

Dorotheos of Sidon: A report on the reconstruction possibilities of his astrological work. In: Rheinisches Museum für Philologie 91, 1942, pp. 326-349.

Long Distance Lending via

https://gvk.k10plus.de

In this context is a good read:

Disiecti membra poetae: New Traces of the Astrological Teaching Poet Dorotheos of Sidon (Palingenesia) Hardback - 18 January 2021

=
"Disiecti membra poetae": Neue Spuren des astrologischen Lehrdichters Dorotheos von Sidon (Palingenesia) Gebundene Ausgabe – 18. Januar 2021

by Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Hübner - Münster

Prof. Hübner's book

"Space, Time and Social Role Play of the Four Cardinal Points in Ancient Catarchic Horoscopy (Beiträge zur Altertumskunde, 194, Vol. 194)."

=

Raum, Zeit und soziales Rollenspiel der vier Kardinalpunkte in der antiken Katarchenhoroskopie (Beiträge zur Altertumskunde, 194, Band 194)

is a relevant read in our context.

Using the Kentras to divide the tropical zodiac creates the four quadrants necessary for every quadrant system.

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/359877 ... bl_vppi_i4

To get a feeling, how complex and manifold the research problems in the scientific field "History of Astrology" can present themselves, I take the example of the Liber Hermetis, which was discovered by Gundel in the British Library.

In this context I recommend:

Teucros in the late Middle Ages

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02678994

Degrees and degree districts of the zodiac signs
In the series Collection of Scientific Commentaries (SWC)

https://www.degruyter.com/serial/ggtk-b/html?lang=de

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... 48486/html

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... 48479/html

and also:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02678994

W. Hübner, “Die Christianisierung der Sternbilder in Wilhelm Schickards ‘Astroscopium’???, in:Zweites Tübinger Schickard-Symposium: 25.–27. Juni 1992 anläßlich des 400. Geburtstages, hrsg. F. Seck, Sigmaringen 1994 (Contubernium 41), 131–150.

Grundlegend F. Boll,Sphaera. Neue griechische Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der Sternbilder, Leipzig 1903 (Ndr. Hildesheim 1967). Zum Hirten und zum Hirsch auf S.254–257. Der hier in Betracht kommende Zweite Teukrostext ist dort nach drei verschiedenen Exzerpten auf S.41–52 herausgegeben.

W. Gundel,Paulys Real-Encyclopädie der Classischen Altertumswissenschaft (=RE) V A (1934), 1132–1134 s.v. Teukros 5. Ders. / H.G. Gundel,Astrologumena. Die astrologische Literatur in der Antike und ihre Geschichte, Wiesbaden 1966 (Sudhoffs Archiv. Beiheft 22), 112f.

Dazu genauer W. Hübner, “Manilius als Astrologe und Dichter???,Aufstieg und Niedergang der Römischen Welt (=ANRW) II 32. 1, hrsg. W. Haase, Berlin-New York 1984, 126–320, hier: 183f. - Aus dem Buch Band 32/1. Teilband Sprache und Literatur (Literatur der julisch-claudischen und der flavischen Zeit)
W. Gundel,Neue astrologische Texte des Hermes Trismegistos. Funde und Forschungen auf dem Gebiet der antiken Astronomie und Astrologie, München 1936 (Abhandlungen der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Philosophisch-Historische Abteilung, Neue Folge 12), nachgedruckt mit Zusätzen von H. G. Gundel, Hildesheim 1978. Eine Übersicht über den Inhalt und die komplizierte Überlieferungslage gibt D. Pingree, “Antiochus and Rhetorius???,Classical Philology 72 (1977), 203–223. Pingree datiert die verlorene griechische Vorlage dieser Kompilation (von ihm als Epitome V bezeichnet) dort ins 9. oder 10. Jahrhundert, Ders.,The Yavanaj??taka (1978: s. Anm. 29), II 431 dagegen schon ins 7. Jahrhundert.—Soeben ist eine Neuedition eschienen:Hermetis Trismegisti De triginta sex decanis, ed. S. Feraboli, Turnholt 1994 (=Hermes Latinus IV 1=Corpus Christianorum, Continuatio Mediaevalis 144).

Hierzu genauer W. Hübner, “Die Paranatellonten im Liber Hermetis???,Sudhoffs Archiv 59, (1975), 387–414, hier: 400.

To falsify the theory that Hellenistic astrology was created by Eudoxos or by a small group with him, I recommend the PhD - Dissertation of Dr. Susanne Denningmann -
The astrological doctrine of doryphoria: a sociomorphic metaphor in ancient planetary astrology (Beiträge zur Altertumskunde, 214, vol. 214).

https://www.amazon.de/astrologische-Leh ... C82&sr=8-2

especially page 9 and the reference to chapter 4.7
The Babylonian Contribution to Greco-Roman
Astronomy by Francesca Rochberg

https://brill.com/display/book/edcoll/9 ... 000015.xml

https://www.academia.edu/79078464/Eleme ... _Astrology

in Hellenistic Astronomy - The Science in Its Contexts -
Brill's Companions to Classical Studies -

https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/22821


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Another beautiful example of the constant evolution of astrological doctrines and systems by E.S. Kennedy (Author), David Pingree (Author) - The Astrological History of Masha'allah (Harvard monographs in the history of science) - https://www.amazon.com/Astrological-His ... 0674050258

especially Page 75

---------

and a last wonderful example in Kevin Van Bladel - The Arabic Hermes: From Pagan Sage to Prophet of Science (Oxford Studies in Late Antiquity) -

https://www.amazon.de/Arabic-Hermes-Pro ... _mk_de_DE=

on Page 101 where he describes the history of the hermetic Astrology via the Sabians of Harran to the Arabic Astrologers.

Your posts here seem a little rambling and quickly becoming a set of unconnected references on astrological history - not about your original topic.

You mention the “theory??? that Eudoxus invented Hellenistic astrology. But it’s not a theory. It’s a statement by Schmidt, without substantiation- at least to any general audience.

Statements without any argument or substance can be just ignored. If there was a theory, it wasn’t explained. It amounts to glorified click bait.

But I recommend narrowing the focus of the topic here because right now it’s rambling to all sorts of subjects and references.