Hi everyone,

Anyone is familiar with the logic behind the association of the 5th house with:
Diplomats, ambassadors and agents - those who negotiate as an intermediary with the intention of finding agreement between others.
From: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h5.html

Or maybe you're familiar with sources it was mentioned in first?

My only clue is the the 5th is the 7th from the 11th, so maybe an association between a group and its chosen representative.

good question dima!

without thinking too hard on this, i would think more 9th, but if not 9th, maybe 12th - as 3rd from the 10th which represents the gov't itself... ambassadors are like emissaries to the gov't.. and often they act in rather 12th house ways, so again - the 9th is the 12th from the 10th too... 5th doesn't make much sense to me.. my 2 cents..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomat

reading these descriptions, i still think they would be represented by 9th house..

James, thanks for your thoughts.
I understand your logic.

I do wonder though; I don't think Deb invented this thing, which makes me wonder as to her source/s...

Hello Dima,

Planetary Level:
At the planetary level, both Mercury and Venus are considered close servants of the King as they are the only two planets that are always tied to the sun (King) meeting the sun by direct and retrograde motion; Mercury is never more than one sign away and Venus is never more than two signs away.

Mercury being the fastest, agent of communication & travel, takes up the role of a page while Venus the lesser benefic with her grandeur & master of rhetoric, takes up the role of an ambassador.

House Level
1) Fifth house is the house where Venus finds Joy and Venus is by planetary level, a significator of ambassador (hence the rambling above!) - making fifth house, the house of ambassador.

2) The 10th house is the house of the "King". 11th house (2nd from 10th) is the house of the King's supporters.
"Others" are represented by the 7th House, the 10th of 7th (i.e. the radical 4th house) = Others' King. The 2nd of the 10th of the 7th (i.e. the radical 5th house) = Others' King's supporters = ambassadors!

This is why in horary, when a question is asked about a foreign ambassador, 5th house is used. 11th house is the supporter of your king not supporters of others kings. You can't be an ambassador IN your country. You can be an ambassador of your country IN another country...
In natal chart, a prominent 11th house are friends of Kings (of course we need other indications) - when it is also connected to the fifth or its ruler - there is possibility of him/her becoming an ambassador...esp when ninth is also involved.

To James...
I am complicating things...!!! hehehe

astrojin

that was pretty fine dancing on your part if i do say!!

a representative for the gov't - 10th house, especially one engaged in 9th house types of activities could be seen as the 9th from the 10th house - 6th house too.. obviously there are a few ways to think about this and i am not thinking horary when i say all this... all good points you make astrojin, which is typical of your high quality posting here at skyscript!

I have found Héloise, a French astrologer based in The Hague, Netherlands to explain the 5th House regarding diplomats, ambassadors and agents.
https://www.heloastro.com/blog/diplomacy-fifth-house

"Now, let’s have a look at what Dorotheus of Sidon, one of the OG hellenistic astrologers that has transmitted us a lot of the original significations of astrology has to say about the triplicity lords of the 5th house:
1st triplicity lord: children & offsprings
2nd triplicity lord: pleasures, love affairs, drinking.
3rd triplicity lord: emissaries, messengers, giving or exchanging of presents."
...
"The connection between the 5th house and diplomats is apparent through the signification of its 3rd triplicity lords: emissaries. The exchange of presents also points to the type of work which aims to both create allies and appease tensions. We can see here the mark of Venus, who rejoices in the 5th house Venus is associated with union and harmony, which are obvious in the work of ambassadors, but also with cleanliness and the tending of temples and sacred rites. Diplomats are messengers, emissaries of their own countries who are invested with an official mission of good relations and pacification. This mission is so important that they have dedicated buildings in foreign countries (consulates & embassies) that citizens of their own countries can come to for assistance."
...
"Another interesting connection is through derivative houses: the 5th house is actually the 9th house from the 9th, which is interesting if you think of diplomats as foreign officials in a foreign country. I also like to think of the relationship of both these houses (the 5th and the 9th) to the 1st house: they all make a trine aspect (they are 120° apart) to each other. Since the trine is a supporting aspect, we see an interesting relationship here between the 9th house (where the Sun rejoices), the house of foreign lands, of the Gods and important religious ceremonies making a superior trine to the 1st — in the case of a state, foreign affairs playing a superior role in the place of the state — which in turns makes a trine to the 5th (chooses ambassadors and sending them abroad), which itself makes a superior trine to the 9th house (diplomats and ambassadors play a key role and influence foreign affairs)."
...
"I’ve noticed that diplomats and people who work in foreign affairs usually have prominent 4th house placements. This is usually because in our modern worlds, they have to build a career in domestic affairs (the politics of their own country) before they venture into foreign affairs."
...
"Speaking of eminence...
see chart of Antonio Guterres on the link above...

In order to calculate eminence, Vettius Valens gives the technique of looking at the triplicity lords of the sect light. For Antonio Guterres, his 5th house Taurus Moon is his sect light. The Earth triplicity lords at night are the Moon, Venus and the participating lord is Mars, in that order. According to Valens, planets that are in good condition and in angular houses (this is very important) are conditions of eminence: the first denotes the first part of life, while the second denotes the second part of the life. If succedent houses (such as the 5th) aren’t too bad in terms of ranking, they don’t necessarily denote eminence (meaning the person being elevated to a higher status that they otherwise started with). However, Valens also says that the participating lord can help the second triplicity lord (so later in life). In this case, Guterres has a 4th house (angular) extremely dignified Mars that comes to assist. If Guterres comes from a relatively modest background (succedent first triplicity lord, the Moon), although provided for, he accessed later in life to honours and eminence in the realm of international politics (his 5th Venus as the second triplicity lord, second part of life - diplomacy par excellence !). Not only that, but he did it through personal recommendations thanks to his background in international politics — symbolised by his 4th Mars as chart ruler! His lot of Spirit, in Capricorn in the 1st house is witnessed favourably by his Taurus stellium (which trines it) and its exaltation ruler Mars. Guterres is the perfect example of 5th house support and honours coming from the realm of the 4th house, so don’t sleep on that connection when it comes to the 5th."

thanks ouranos

that is a good article.. i enjoyed reading it and was surprised to see the chart for antonio guterres.. of course the triplicity lords change if one does his chart in sidereal... i might do a post on it in the mundane forum...

so is it king or gov't? how do they differ? i am reminded of the difference indian astrology gives to western astrology with the 10th verses the 9th - house associated with the father... just speaking my mind as usual... i am mostly curious about mundane astrology in so far as finding an answer to my own question - not to downplay dimas initial question here...at any rate - i enjoyed the article you linked to.. thanks! it backs up astrojins commentary on the 5th and venus and etc. connections... clearly the author, astrojin and perhaps deb - if that link from dima was written by deb - are all drinking from the same well - dorotheus of sidon, or hellenistic astrology more generally..

xx

Astrojin,

The set of triplicity rulers you mention is related to Signs (decans) not Houses.

Possible theories regarding the Triplicity rulers and how they can be viewed.
 Relationship with the Signs or the Ecliptic.
 Relationship with the House or the Equator.
 Relationship in which first and second magnitude stars, arising with each sign or house would be the indication of the beginning of effect of the triplicity rulers. Which house system is another loophole here.

The reason I am saying this is that I have seen Triplicity rulers related to Signs, some to Decans to be more specific, some to Houses and some to Fixed Stars.
We are back to the debate Signs vs Houses. Please do not bring me back to the pit, I have enough gas to finish the rat race!

Thanks for all who participated.

Ouranus: great reply!
You've really hit the nail on the head, looks like.

Note to self: do a repetition on the topic of triplicity lords for houses (Al-Andarzaghar and such).

The set of triplicity rulers you mention is related to Signs (decans) not Houses.

No, I was not...!

with the glitch..don't feel like responding... anyway i think Dima has got what is needed