Oh, I see. This is 'converse' in the modern sense of going backwards in time (so that an arc of 78 degrees corresponds to 312 minutes before birth, not after it). Nobody did that before the 19th century, when all the confusion about primary directions began, at least not intentionally. So yes, in my opinion it's irrelevant.

What I do find striking about the current state of Trump's chart, now I look at it, is the tight Mercury-Saturn square in his 2023 revolution, with both those planets squaring/opposing his directed Sun (sect light and hyleg). It's particularly so in a sidereal zodiac, where the square is formed between the 1st and 10th houses (with Mercury exactly on the ascendant) and the Sun has just entered the terms of Saturn.

Interesting this Mercury/Saturn square = Sun
In Rules for Planetary Pictures, they say
'Parting person. Unruly guest (someone who behaves badly and difficult to control.) Not staying long in one place. Walking, traveling.'

Martin Gansten wrote:Oh, I see. This is 'converse' in the modern sense of going backwards in time (so that an arc of 78 degrees corresponds to 312 minutes before birth, not after it). Nobody did that before the 19th century, when all the confusion about primary directions began, at least not intentionally. So yes, in my opinion it's irrelevant.

Thanks for that comment.
I thought my Janus software was doing the correct type of converse primary directions which is moved converse in primary motion, not in time as done in more modern times..
I have been doing this all the time. (Sh****t).

Have to have a look at the settings in the software to get the real ones.

Someone here with Janus software knowing how to get the right settings ?


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Edit:
I have now looked into the settings in Janus and the only options seems to be:

Select direction - Usually both
*Direct
*Converse (counterclockwise)
*Both (normally selected)
Traditionally both are given equal importance


No mention of a time based Converse primary direction.
(confused).

Well, the Janus people are wrong, in two ways:

(1) Traditionally, converse directions were not considered equally important with direct ones. This was apparently on the authority of Ptolemy, who in Tetr. III 10 (Robbins) or 11 (Hübner) says, in the context of the length of life (transl. Robbins):

the destructive degrees in the prorogation that follows the order of leading signs [= converse motion] [...] do not destroy because they do not move toward the prorogative place, but it moves toward them.

(2) But even if they had been considered equally important, all directions were calculated with the primary motion (= with time), not against it, as if planets would rise in the west and set in the east. What Janus (and most people today) call converse is just such an unnatural motion, and it was invented quite recently.

The traditional meaning of direct and converse is simple: imagine that you want to direct a significator such as the Moon in Trump's chart. You could do that by symbolically moving it either with or against the zodiacal order. If you move it forward in the zodiac, it will eventually encounter the opposition of Saturn, and that would be called a direct direction. If you move it backward in the zodiac, it will eventually encounter the body of Jupiter, and that would be called a converse direction. But astronomically, both directions would be accomplished by natural, clockwise motion: the former by the opposition point of Saturn reaching the natal place of the Moon, and the latter by the Moon itself reaching the natal place of Jupiter. Nothing would be moved anticlockwise, because that just doesn't happen in nature.

Incidentally, I see that the former direction perfected within a year of Trump losing his elder brother, while the latter perfected the year he (actually) won the presidential election.

Thanks Martin for that elaboration. I will meditate on it for further understanding.
I also found your lecture on converse primary directions as guest to Luis Ribeiro on youtube. saved it for later watching.


Interesting example with the primary direction of Moon to Jupiter when Trump won the election 2016. I actually looked at it yesterday to see what was there in the Primary directions in that surprise win which shocked everyone.

Incidentally RIP Ed Falis who used primary direction extensively in his practice, was one of the few who got it right in predicting Trump as the winner 2016.
I always wondered what it was he saw doing that prediction. This positive direction was one of them I understand now.

You are a great teacher Martin because of your understanding.
Question for you. How should we view PD (astronomically) in the Southern Hemisphere?

Thank you. I've generally found that understanding something helps when you want to explain it.

There is no difference between the northern and southern hemispheres when it comes to directions (although, like houses, they break down/cease to function in the normal way in the polar regions).

The primary motion south of the tropics mirrors that north of them, in that everything culminates in the north, while still rising in the east and setting in the west. In other words, it moves anticlockwise, which I suppose is why you ask. (Clockwise is clockwise simply because clocks were invented in the northern hemisphere: they imitate the daily motion of the Sun across the sky.) But the important point is that directions are based on natural motion after birth, not before it.

It seems like I have to backtrack my assessment a bit about Trumps nex year situation since Janus software seems intended to prank me, inserting "ghost aspects" in the Primary direction list for next year with a Moon mars direction which is not there, as Martin pointed out.

My settings is: Placidus Semiarc, Ptolemy key, With latitude (Bianchini).
Which is the ones recommended by Luis Ribeiro, in a webinar course I took last year, about traditional predictive methods.

I also checked the animation tool in Janus for the primary directions and it match the events with the Moon that Martin gave for Trumps brothers death Moon saturn and for the victory 2016 corresponding to his surprising win in the election. Which fits fine.
But the animation tool is nowhere close in any Moon Mars direction 2024 , which show up in the listing.

I may have to download Morinus and double check it in the future to avoid these possible Janus failings.

Regarding Trumps destiny, another look is necessary. With other techniques as well:D

Regarding Trumps destiny, another look is necessary. With other techniques as well

I will have an Uranian outlook with Solar Arc more closely at Trump's chart when I have time Stefan

Hi Stefan,

I feel your pain with Janus primaries, gave up on them ages back. And I really wish their speculum, parts list, and a few other things were in tables and not just a mass of text

Mars does seem to be playing havoc with Trump, I've been keeping an eye on the news for a few things, as a test. Just an FYI, the directions I mention are not standard and won't show up in any software listing; bounds, though, are the usual.

Approx Sept 13 thru to April 2026
This I'm really curious about -- do the antiscia play a role in directing thru the bounds?

Asc is in the bounds of Mars in Scorpio and will meet Fortune's antiscion at 1 Scorpio around mid-September 2023. Mars has been sharing by conjunction with the Ascendant since roughly June 2, 2022 and as given him quite a ride:

June 9'22 1st televised Jan 6 Commission hearing
Aug 8'22 FBI Raid Mar-a-Lago
Nov 8'22 Candidates for Senate that he backed lose
Nov 15'22 Announces his candidacy for Presidential run in 2024
Dec 30'22 Democratic Congress releases his tax files
May 9'23 Found guilty in Civil Suit brought by E. Jean Carroll
June 9'23 Indicted for taking classified documents when he left office

Aug 1'23 Indicted by Grand Jury for attempting to overturn 2020 election

From June until December his directed Mars was also conjunct his radix Sun (approx Nov'21 until Dec'22) His profection was in the 5th (Sagittarius) on his 76th birthday (June 14, 2022). Jupiter was Lord of the Year in his profected 10th. The radix 5th is elections and risks, he was battling (Mars) to retain his position (Sun) within the GOP; interesting that he declared his candidacy for president in this period and and that his tax files were finally released (Mars in profected 8th, taxes). He was also dealing the judiciary (Jupiter), losing a civil trial and facing indictments.

The profection moved to the 6th with Saturn as Lord of the Year and contains Fortune; does it mean his luck has run out? especially as Saturn is averse to Fortune with no mitigation. He does oppose the profected 6th from the 12th (in Cancer, nearly all of Capricorn covers the profected 12th) so grief, worry, loss?

Jun-Jan 1
Mars opp Moon – public (Moon) legal battles (Mars rules 9th), a fairly safe bet given his history, perhaps over the documents case as radix Moon is in the 4th (home) and in the profected 11th (administration)

November – December
The Lot of Kingship will move from being conjunct Moon to conjunct the South Node while the Lot of Honors turns critical at 29 Virgo; a fall from grace, public (Moon) turns against him or more problems for his reputation because of women, wife (Moon)?

Approx Dec thru January

The directed South Node will conjunct radix Mars on or around December 8 across the profected 7th-1st; with the Mars/Moon opposition active at the same time, possibly marriage problems.

And then around January 1st directed Mars will conjunct the radix North Node, in the profected 5th of children, affairs, risk. I read they are trying to set his trial date for January 2nd, perhaps this is indicating the start of a court battle?

Saturn, Lord of the Year, will be square radix Venus from June'23 until February'24 so possible divorce, loss (Saturn) of wife (Venus); which is followed, briefly (approx Feb 26-Mar 10) by the directed Moon square Saturn. Given the Mars/Moon/Node connections may reinforce possiblity of diffculties due to marriage/woman or general public (Moon). Or could be some difficulties because of his daughter(s) (Venus)?

But also need to consider the chance of illness as Saturn rules radix 6th as well as 7th and in the profected chart he rules the 12th and 1st and is posited in the 6th.

His chart is super busy with a number of planets changing degrees, curious to see how it all plays out.

Ouranos wrote:

Regarding Trumps destiny, another look is necessary. With other techniques as well

I will have an Uranian outlook with Solar Arc more closely at Trump's chart when I have time Stefan

Yes do !

I love Solar Arc's
I predicted on AW forum that the lunation in Cancer 17 July on Trumps natal Saturn would be tough.
This lunation at 24' Cancer triggered:
solar arc sa Pluto square Saturn. (0'00 orb)
Secondary progressed Moon square Saturn (0'24 orb).


And I think at 16th July he said he first recieved the target letter that he would be indicted for the january 6th conspiracy.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... jack-smith

Stefan wrote:It seems like I have to backtrack my assessment a bit about Trumps nex year situation since Janus software seems intended to prank me

Assuming you have a licensed copy, you may want to write to Janus and point out the problem. And if they need help to get it right, feel free to point them my way...