For the Horary lovers, here is a recent chart I did for a friend whom I recently supported in her disease as a primary caregiver. And yes it all started when progressed Venus made a conjunction to my natal Saturn, the main combination to receive this calling in our life.
I asked this question August 7th. Mercury Day, Venus Hour in mixed reception by term.
When will X be admitted in a long-term care unit?

Story:
X (7th House in Virgo) entered the hospital in June with several physical ailments combined with her old age. (Moon last sextile Saturn R in Pisces in her 7th and ruling her 12th)
Her ruler Mercury in Virgo is strong by sign and house position, free of beams and trined by Moon and Jupiter in Taurus. It does deny the possibility of death from her hospital stay and it indicates several beneficial adjustments to her condition to reach a stabilization.
Yet it is conjunct the Part of Sickness, in opposition to Saturn R and Vespertine to the Sun.
Intestines and lungs are the main concern here.
In Centiloquium LXVIII, Ptolemy says that when a planet is oriental to the Sun (matutine) it indicates an infirmity, when occidental to the Sun (vespertine) a sickness. Understood here that it has to be afflicted by a malefic.

Timing:
The Moon ruling her 12th of long-term care unit will trine her ruler Mercury in 2 degrees 14 minutes. And conjunct Jupiter (ruling her 4th in her 8th, final home) in 4 degrees 4 minutes. Mercury in Virgo being angular and mutable suggests days, weeks or months and the aspect is between 2 swift planets.

Question: When will X be admitted in a long-term care unit?
Any tips or suggestions welcome!

Before investing in the judgement, I think it is really important for you to know and be able to demonstrate that the chart is radical and descriptive - especially for 3rd person horaries where you are asking about a concern that belongs to someone else. The ascendant is extremely early and Saturn rises, both considerations before judgement - have you given thought to that and checked the radicality? Also, I'm wondering why you used the 7th house for your friend rather than the 11th house of friends?

With regard to that quote from Ptolemy's Centiloquium, I wouldn't try to use that here for Mercury. Coley's translation reads "68. A malevolent planet when he is matutine [oriental], signifies a fall ; when vespertine,[occidental] a disease" - Mars and Saturn appear to be intended here and the phase cycles of the outer planets are very different to those of the Moon or inferior planets.

Thank you Deb,
Early rising with Saturn R at the ASC. 2 strikes against me, I agree with you not the best chart to read for an astrologer. I can tell you later what happened. I would like to get some more feedback on what others think about this chart.
As for 'my friend', she is more than that, she is a former lover and the Part of Sickness is in the 7th conjunct the 7th House ruler, which fits her description perfectly well. But she wore several hats in my life, former lover, friend, neighbor, travel companion, nurse when I was sick. I can say that she has been and is a 'significant person' in my life. The reason I gave her the 7th House.

'Is this chart radical?'
My personal take on this is that every chart is readable meaning it contains the answer. Sort of placing the chart above myself. With Saturn R, timing is critical. More so when the question starts with When. Yet, I see that astrologers, when sharing their comments jump into the chart and start giving their interpretations on the outcome in a search for true or false. It can indicate that I am not be the best person to answer the question but maybe other astrologers are or... something else!

For the quote of Ptolemy, I used the French translation of Nicholas Bourdin where fall is translated as 'infirmité'. In other words, chronic vs acute. The disease is curable, the fall is not. And oriental or occidental to the Sun not in the figure.

Appreciate your feedback Deb. I value your astrological expertise and judgment.

Ouranos wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 1:01 pm My personal take on this is that every chart is readable meaning it contains the answer.

That opens up a big debate. Providing the question is properly rooted/presents appropriate intention on a pertinent issue and is judged to be radical (meaning it draws out and connects to relevant natal themes), I agree with you. But not every question makes a valid horary - if I cast 10 charts a day asking how news events will play out around the world, I'd be making a mockery of the system and the chart symbolism would be correspondingly futile.
In general, we need extra vigilence with ‘3rd-party’ horaries -- though the purpose is to find out what will happen to someone else, the horary will always wrap itself around the concern of the querent, and how the issue affects them and how they stand in the issue. That’s why it's useful to understand how you decided the signification for your friend, because the effect this situation is having upon you is pertinent and will be embedded in the symbolism. It would seem odd that a good friend is signified by Saturn which is pressing down on the ascendant, appearing to overwhelm you with responsibilities.
Using the 7th ruler, Mercury’s separating opposition from Saturn and movement towards the trine of Jupiter (you) looks positive, like there is relief to come for both of you. But here the Moon’s conjunction with Jupiter in 4 degrees might be very significant too – in terms of the effect the situation has upon you, or it could represent a time that heightens your concern for the matter.

Have you made a judgement on this yourself? It's a bit hard to tell from your post if the situation has already played out and you are sharing this, or if you are looking for confirmation of what you have seen yourself in the application of Mercury and the Moon to Jupiter.

I don’t really understand the point you are making about the ‘chronic vs acute’ issue though, or why you would use the Centiloquium aphorism to try to decide that, but it is how the symbolism speaks to you as the astrologer that matters, so if that seems meaningful to you, then great. But if I were to look at this chart for a client, I would need to know a lot more about the situation to clarify the circumstances being asked about and the potential prospects. For example, if there was an underlying concern about this involving end-of-life care, or a worry about a health situation turning very debilitating, I'd be looking more closely at the approach of Mercury to Mars, and the notion of relief coming from the Moon-Jupiter contact, in the derived 8th house would get a different shade of meaning. I think these are things that can only make true sense to you as both querent and astrologer here.

Alphee Lavoie in his 60 years + of Horary readings says in his book 'Lose this book... and find it with Horary' p. 2
"The early degree is simply telling you that it is too early to answer the question with complete certainty... (or if the question comes from a client)... that it could take too long for the client to feel confident about (the question) or that (the question) will reshape itself in some major way."
And this is exactly how I felt. I did not feel confident enough to answer the question.
But he adds, 'these early or late degrees have proven to be radical and should always be read to the client'.
The shift goes from an external cause (chart not radical) to an internal cause (lack of confidence). In the former, you cannot find the reason. In the latter, you find an explanation. And what would Lilly have said had he known the existence of Neptune? Better not to read the chart also!

We still need to exercise a reasoning to see if the chart is radical. Radical in the sense of the question not about Saturn R in the 1st.
In this chart, I asked about a 'significant other' (7th House) and her ruler Mercury in the 7th in Vigro is conjunct the Part of Sickness which fits perfectly well her physical description, her ailments and the question asked about.

I draw several scenarios from this chart.

Scenario #1 If I decide not to read the chart because of Saturn and my lack of confidence, I am avoiding what's in front of me.
But the chart contains the information.

Scenario #2 If I try to read the chart with the aura of Saturn behind, I am not approaching it the right way. If I fail in my diagnostic, no need to blame Saturn because how many times do you fail to read a question without Saturn or an early degree.
But the information is in the chart.

Scenario #3 If I make abstraction of my condition and read the chart, I am making the right step.
Because the information is in the chart.

And when I say that the information is in the chart...

She did find a home 2 days later when MercuryL1 in partile trine to JupiterL4. Heaven took care of it.
MO L12 (Exaltation) applying by trine to ME L1 (Rulership) and translating to JU L4. Nothing but success.

I just wanted to share with you the process of my reflection by revisiting the concept of a radical chart.

Thanks for sharing this, Ouranos. Might I just add that Mercury also rules the 4th - which is the 6th house (carers) of the 11th (a friend). Taking this path would have led us to the same conclusion. In fact I deduced this before I read your further updates! Thank you again.