Ouranos wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:52 am Thumbs up Janegca!
I did not watch the game. When they say the game starts at 7:07pm, is it the first pitch or something else?

I'm not entirely sure but I think it means the time both teams are expected to be on the field and ready to play which would mean everyone in their positions ready to go including the batter being at the plate and the pitcher on the mound.

Ouranos: Did you know baseball is the first sport in the Bible?
Jason: No, I didn’t.
Ouranos: Yep, in Genesis it says, “In the big inning!”

lol...

Let's see what tonight has in the dugout for us - Game 3.

Yup.

Well, they lost again, Jays 3-Rangers 6.

Taking a look at my initial remarks:

• Rangers re: Moon sep from Uranus giving Uranus to L1 - "Will it add some erratic behaviour to their play tonight?" - no, Rangers played well through out. It could possibly relate to Scherzer having to leave the game in the 5th with a "right tricep spasm"
• Jays "play possibly a little better since the Mars/Mercury partile semi-sextile is no more" - the Jays did do better, losing by 3 runs instead of 6 (oop..just noticed they lost the first game 10-4, not 10-3)
• Jays re: Moon sep Saturn - "not sure what gift Saturn can give them, problems behind the scenes for the Rangers? More apt to cause the Jays grief (opposition, in the Jays 6th)" - Saturn did give the Jays a gift, removing Scherzer from the game (Jays were down 3-0 at the time) but the Jays could not take advantage, at least, not enough of an advantage. Bonatti/Brady say a planet that is Retro or Cadent cannot accept a gift and so returns it and if the giving planet is also Retro or Cadent the returned gift becomes a burden. Since Mercury (L7) is both Retro and Cadent its possible the Jays couldn't make use of the situation, figuratively, they had to return the gift. And it did, in a way, become a burden on the Rangers as they had to go to their bullpen, which gave up 3 runs. Although they were able to produce another 3 of their own.

One thing I just noticed, according to Bonatti's moiety rules, Jupiter (L1) and Mercury (L7) are in a separating trine. Jupiter's orb is 9° and Mercury's 7°, if the two are within (15 + 7)/2 = 8° of each other they are considered to be within an aspect". They will be within 6-7° of each other for all four games. Jupiter has the "overcoming" position, being in the 9th from Mercury. As a separating aspect it represents the past and a trine represents "ease" and the Rangers have owned the Jays this year. As it's not an applying aspect the two are not considered "joined" and the aspect should not effect the game outcome but it is interesting how it fits the existing relationship.

And now on to Game 3.

The game is set for the same time (7:07pm) and place (Rogers Centre, Toronto), different day. September 13, 2023 Away Team - Challengers - Rangers
L1 Jupiter (superior planet) retrograde (weakness) at 15 Taurus (term) in 2nd (succedent)
Moon separating from a conjunction with Mercury (L7)
Jupiter is not applying to any other planet

Home Team - Defender - Jays
L7 Mercury (inferior planet) retrograde (weakness) at 8 Virgo (domicile) in 6th (cadent) and USB
Moon applying to trine Jupiter (L1)

Judgment: although L7 is no longer combust, having moved into USB, Bonatti tells us that the Moon separating from one significator (L7-Jays-Mercury) to another (L1-Rangers-Jupiter) is a "great debility" for the significator she is leaving, the (L7-Jays-Mercury)

Probable Outcome: Jays will most likely lose, again

Ouranos wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:42 am Blue Jays Season Opener 2023 in St-Louis

Thanks Ouranos. Will take a look although I don't think I've ever looked at "opening" charts before; maybe read it as a longer "battle" chart?

I see the Rangers winning again tonight.
I use the opening game as a natal chart. And move the AS and MC around the chart every day. Testing it right now!

Tonight, conjunction Moon/Mercury in Virgo trine the PF of their 1st game of the season.
Diurnal MC at 18 Lib 06 square their natal Mars and sesqui-quadrate their natal Saturn. Possible injury to one of their player. And natal MC semi-square natal Mars which is sesqui-quadrate their natal Saturn.
And diurnal AS sesqui-quadrate transiting Jupiter.
Hard aspects = will to win, competitiveness, steadfast.

Ouranos wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 2:55 pm I see the Rangers winning again tonight.
I use the opening game as a natal chart. And move the AS and MC around the chart every day. Testing it right now!

That's interesting, have never taken that approach; I'd be inclined to use the very first game chart as the natal. Although I can see the logic in your approach since the team has a different make-up every year.

One question, why do you use Arlington, TX for the game chart when it's being played in Toronto? Asking as I've always used the place of the event whenever I check any type of transit.

And second, do you consider the semi-square and seqsqui-quadratures "hard" or discordant/disruptive?

This was an interesting exercise. Took a look at the chart as if it were a "war" chart, implying multiple battles, that would show the final outcome which I guess would mean, ultimately, the team being over or under .500 for the season. Applying Bonatti rules

L1 = Opponents

• Mercury (inferior planet) at 23 AR (peregrine) in 8th (succedent)
• Moon sep square Jupiter (L7) (first is really a separating trine from Neptune but not quite sure how to use the outers in these scenarios) - Jupiter of no use to L1 especially as also in the 8th with Jupiter (weakness)
• Mercury applying sextile Saturn w/o reception (first application is really applying square to Pluto) (weakness)
• L1 in 8th - teams uncertain of their abilities (weakeness)
• L1 (Mercury) sextile domicile of Gemini in the 10th (strength)
• L1 (Mercury) inconjunct domicile Virgo on the 1st. The signs (AR-VI) are antiscia, might offer some mitigation (weakness)
• Ascendant is in partile opposition to Saturn, no benefic aspects Saturn - teams will not execute their actions properly (weakness)
• Mars in Cancer throws his square to Libra in the 2nd, Venus throws a sextile into Cancer - things will go mildly (Venus) wrong (weakness)

L7 = Jays

• Jupiter (superior planet) in 18 AR (triplicity) in the 8th (succedent)
• Moon applying to trine of Sun (first application is really opposition of Pluto) - Moon critical at 29 CA (domicile) in the 4th from Jupiter (strength)
• Jupiter applying to the sextile of Saturn (1st application is really a square to Pluto) - Jupiter receives Saturn but Saturn does not receive Jupiter (weakness)
• Jupiter (L7) trine its own domicile (SAG) in the 4th (9th sign from Jupiter in AR) (strength)
• Jupiter (L7) semi-sextile domcile (PI) on 7th/8th in signs (AR-PI) of equal ascension so with the power of a conjunction (strength)
• Saturn conjunct Descendant, Saturn is not in the aspect of a benefic - the team will not execute properly/as expected (weakness)
• Mars throws his square to the 8th and is not in the aspect of a benefic - things will go wrong, injuries will affect the team (weakness)

General Considerations

• Saturn in an angle prolongs the battle - believe this means the final outcome will not be clear until the end of the season
• Moon in Cancer indicates a moderate number of battles - season average? no added play-off games?
• Mercury is separating from a conjunction with Jupiter - Bonatti says this means the contest will last longer than usual

Judgement
Overall, the Jays will win out over their opponents during the season (intrinsic strength, L1 has more weaknesses) but it won't be fully clear until nearly the end of the season (Saturn angular, Mercury/Jupiter separating conjunction) but they are not likely to perform at the level expected (Saturn conjunct Desc (fudging here, I know they've under performed this season compared to last season). In fact, the season has been a battle which I think means that applying Moon/Pluto square has been operating over the season.

One question, why do you use Arlington, TX for the game chart when it's being played in Toronto? Asking as I've always used the place of the event whenever I check any type of transit.

And second, do you consider the semi-square and seqsqui-quadratures "hard" or discordant/disruptive?

The first game of the season was played in the Globe Life Park, Arlington, TX. And the time and the location does not change for the season. I just change the date. It is like a diurnal chart. You need to keep an eye on the Moon as it travels more quickly in the Time Zones (meaning that it will be the Moon position in Toronto). Keep in mind that if the opener was played at 7pm and the game for the day is at 2pm, you need to use the date of the previous day as the AS and MC will become effective at 7pm of that day.
As for the semi-square and sesqui-quadrates, depending on your approach, they will have a different meaning.
Here is a resume of the approach I am testing as defined by Sophia Mason in 'The Art of Forecasting using diurnal charts'.
* The transiting and natal planetary aspects to Angular house cusps (natal or diurnal) are the only configurations used
* Orb - 1 to 2 degrees at most (1 degree is best)
* Aspects between transiting and natal planets are very important if they both aspect an Angular house cusp at the same time
* The POF in hard aspect to an angular house cusp, this team may lose the game
* Give first considerations to squares, semisquares, sesquisquares, oppositions and inconjuncts as they are the most important aspects in sports gaming. The sextiles and trines do not seem to be strong enough to win.
*** The team with the most aspects to angular house cusps from transiting or natal planets has the greatest potential for winning, especially if the team has a modified T-square formation to an angular house cusp..
Here she means when 3 planets form hard aspects together.

In this system, you do not consider the Succedent and Cadent houses or dignities. You focus on hard aspects between planets as 'energy' leading to winning.
Any system has its own set of rules and they can be as good when they are understood and applied properly.
I have not mastered Sophia Mason system fully but she used it for over 20 years and said "Gradually through experience and research in working with game charts you'll soon be getting ninety percent of your teams correct. The other ten percent will be due to human error."

Here is the day chart for the Blue Jays tonight.

Hi Ouranos,

Ouranos wrote: The first game of the season was played in the Globe Life Park, Arlington, TX. And the time and the location does not change for the season. I just change the date. It is like a diurnal chart

Ah, ok, got it. The Texas chart is busier than the Jays so you give the edge to them. Her system is very different from anything I’ve come across. A 90% win rate is pretty high!

Well, not much to say, the Jays lost again 0-10. Bonatti's comment about the Moon separating from one significator and applying to the other being a "great debility" for the one she has separated from seems very apt. Jays did not play well at all, crowd actually started booing them in the 6th inning, that doesn't happen often in Toronto. Brady gives the 12th to "fans"; in yesterday's chart it was just separating from Mercury (L7) in the 6th (12th from the 7th); they literally pulled away form the team?

Here's the Game 4 chart, same start time, 7:07p, and place, Rogers Centre, Toronto, new day (I live in hope) Away Team - Challengers - Rangers
L1 Jupiter (superior planet) retrograde (weakness) at 15 Taurus (term) in 2nd (succedent)
Moon separating from a trine with Jupiter (no additional help)
Jupiter is not applying to any other planet
Venus (cadent) is applying to square Jupiter (1°02') (weakness)

Home Team - Defenders - Blue Jays
L7 Mercury (inferior planet) retrograde (weakness) at 8 Virgo (domicile) in 6th (cadent)
Moon applying to conjunct Sun (strength??)
Mercury coming out of USB and going to SD (strength)
Mars (in detriment) in the 7th semi-sextile 7th cusp in Libra-Virgo, equally ascending signs, so power of conjunction. Mars is received by triplicity in Virgo.

Judgement: there may be a hint of a chance the Jays win this one. The strengthening square between L7 and a cadent planet could weaken the Rangers. I seem to remember reading, somewhere, that the Sun always takes the Moon's disposition so the conjunction could mean success for the Jays . The Sun is also moving to trine Uranus, possibly indicating the Jays could "upset" the Rangers. Mercury is finally out of combustion/USB and moving towards his 2nd station. The Mars/7th contact may mean the Jays could "refuse to lose". Together these things may be enough to lift the Jays to a win. I admit to a lack of objectivity here, we'll see.

Just as a point of interest, the Rangers had bad news yesterday about Scherzer's injury. The " teres major strain, an injury to a muscle connecting the arm to the shoulder blade" it will keep him out of the line-up for the rest of the season, and it is 'unlikely' he will pitch in the play-offs. Looking back at the Game 2 chart (when the injury happened) the Moon was separating from Uranus (unexpected). Uranus is in the 2nd with Jupiter (L7) and opposing the 8th (accidents, injuries, reportings, according to Brady). Then in yesterday's chart, the Lot of Fortune (29 AQ) and the 8th (29 LI) were both critical in air signs; the team got bad news about the injury. It's possible their moral may be down (Jupiter sqr Venus?) today.

Tonight, it is very close to call.
Taking the square between Venus and Jupiter both teams connect to it.
The Blue Jays by their daily ASC and the Rangers by their daily MC. Hem!
Trying to sort them out by POF or the Vertex, the Jays have a 2 degree orb conjunction to POF and the Rangers a 1 degree conjunction between the Vertex and Venus.
I will go with the Rangers.
---------------
Thanks for the info on Scherzer's injury Janegca, I was not aware of it. Yesterday, I mentioned 'possible injury to one of their player' because of the connection between Mars and Saturn but this was an old school reaction. The system I am testing right now is not fit for this kind of statement. It does not answer How but Who wins.
Another wisdom move would be to discard betting on this game tonight. Why?
In the sky, 2 aspects are highlighted -
1) The conjunction between Sun and Moon to which the Rangers do not connect and the Jays by a trine (weak) but reinforced by a separating trine to POF. (Advantage Jays)
2) The square between Venus and Jupiter to which both teams connect. (Advantage Rangers because of the Vertex)
If only one team was connecting, that would be a strong green signal. Only betting on a clear signal is the backbone of success.
But we are in Joyland and all blows are allowed!

Nice to be sharing this post with you Janegca!
Ouranos