Astrology and Science 1 by Ouranos Here is an interesting site https://www.astrology-and-science.com/ Editor: Wout Heukelom wout.heukelom@hetnet.nl Collaborators: Geoffrey Dean (Australia), Rudolf Smit, Cygnea van der Hooning (The Netherlands), Arthur Mather (Scotland), Dvid Nias (England) Downloads To download the pdf files visit the download page. No registration or login is required. You are welcome to use the material and distribute it to others for free but please mention the source (book title, authors, publisher, book date, page numbers). The publisher welcomes your comments (email as above also in book and pdfs). ---------------------------------------- In 'Understanding astrology' p. 28-29-30 A critical review of a thousand empirical studies 1900-2020 ... My famous experiment By now I was going to college and was taking a philosophy class in Kansas City. My teacher was Verle Muhrer, a skeptic who was fascinated by paranormal claims. So I started learning to be skeptical and to carefully check out experiences like mine more carefully. He pointed out that my prediction involved something that happens to young ladies not infrequently, so its success was hardly a big deal. He also persuaded me and several like-minded friends to do an experiment that eventually became quite famous. It was quite simple. We first ran a test with the help of one of Kansas City's most experienced astrologers. She agreed to match the timed birth charts of ten female students with their personality test scores and dates of important events in their lives. When she achieved only one hit (no better than chance) she said this was because astrological symbols do not translate well into traits and events. Now she tells us! But was this a reason or an excuse? To find out, we decided to have volunteers go to top astrologers for a reading, paying the requested fee (generally $50 to $100) but with the birth data of John Gacy, one of the worst convicted serial killers in American history. At the time Gacy was on death row at Menard Correctional Center in Chicago. He had received 12 death sentences and 21 life terms for the brutal torture and murder of 33 young men and boys. He was born in Chicago on 17 March 1942 at 00:29 CWT = 05:29 GMT [Rodden AA rating] and was executed by lethal injection on 10 May 1994 after 14 years of appeals. Verle had picked Gacy for the experiment because Gacy's chart should portray a clear picture of a sadistic sexually motivated killer. According to Verle, if astrologers are able to spot personality traits and destinies in birth charts, then they should have no trouble with this one. They might not pinpoint a killer (who after all is not exactly your typical everyday client) but they should at least be able to pick up negative influences. Of course I had to agree. To give astrologers their best shot, our volunteer clients would not guide the conversation in any way but would simply agree with whatever was said. They would ask only two questions, again always agreeing with whatever was said: John Gacy.png Viewed 7143 times 46.91 KiB (1) What was going on in the client's life between December 1978 and March of 1980, when Gacy was arrested, tried, and sentenced to death. If astrological descriptions of past happenings are incorrect, then one can hardly be confident of future predictions. (2) Would the client be suitable for the youth ministry? Obviously the answer had to be No. The astrologers should be able to see negative consequences of any connections with youth. Pointing this out ought to be no more difficult than pointing out the negative consequences of connections with say golf or alcohol. Gacy was then in his mid 40s. All the astrologers were well-known locally and at least one was a national celebrity. In short, I had top astrologers and a really unambiguous subject. So I was expecting a wholly positive outcome. Unfortunately I was wrong. The results were nothing like what my experience had led me to expect. But judge them for yourself: Reading #1: "a very, very sensitive person" The first reading was by Norma Knight, former owner of a New Age bookstore and a professional astrologer for seven years with numerous appearances on radio and television. She said the client was "a very, very sensitive person". Re the youth ministry: "I think that you can be very good with kids and that it might be a good medium for you to learn to be more trusting in the giving and receiving". To give her another chance the client asked if there was anything in his chart to suggest he should not go into the youth ministry. She saw nothing. What about the time when Gacy was arrested and sentenced to death? "It was a time that should have brought you some recognition with peers or just feeling that people liked you and cared about you". In fact one mother at Gacy's trial said "I hope he burns in hell". Reading #2: "kind, gentle, considerate" Our next reading was a 12-page computerized delineation by AGS Software. The Pisces Sun and Moon indicated "a sucker for anyone who needs help ... kind, gentle, considerate ... good taking care of the sick, wounded and helpless". Each of the chart's 27 aspects could be interpreted as either positive or negative, making their meaning obscure. Thus Jupiter square MC meant "high standards of ethics and morality" and at the same time "selfish and arrogant". Reading #3: "your life will be very, very positive!" Our most verbose reading came from Randy Goodman, a professional astrologer, psychic, tarot artist, crystal ball reader and spiritual teacher. For $65 the client learnt he was "born to serve other people". He had "healing powers", and was "an old soul, a very old soul ... it is a function of the older souls to guide the newer ... basically your life will be very, very positive!" The analysis went on for an hour and a half. It could have applied to anyone, and there was no hint of the significant events in Gacy's life. The client should join the youth ministry, and this would be a good time to do so. When Gacy was burying bodies in his basement, Uranus was in 12th house showing "you probably decided to become a peacemaker". In 7 years' time you would become "stabilized"; in 14 years "recognized as a public authority"; in 21 years "will achieve another peak in your professional endeavors". All rather optimistic for a man on death row. Reading #4: "marked capacity to uplift others" Prolific author John Sandbach had been an astrologer for 22 years, had taught and lectured from coast to coast, and was "one of the best in the country". His humility was exceeded only by the praise he heaped on Gacy. For $50 we received 11 typed pages of glowing prose. Has "a marked capacity to uplift others ... instinctive awareness can refresh and gladden whomever you encounter". Re youth ministry, the "plasticity or lack of aggression ... would be excellent for working around young people", but avoid "regrets about how you could have done more in some past situation ... the world needs your strangeness". At least 33 families would disagree. Reading #5: "a good role model" Beverley Farrell was an "internationally recognized author, lecturer and teacher of religion, metaphysics, astrology and psychic awareness" with 30 years of experience. The client had "a fairly well-rounded personality" and was "a good role model", but Farrell had made a 5-hour calculation error by using GMT instead of CWT and had to try again. The youth ministry indications were now "even stronger ... you're calmer and more pleasant ... when working with young people you'll not have major heavy-duty problems". We can only be thankful Gacy was not born 5 hours earlier. My astrologers agree on the wrong verdict These readings from five top astrologers were unanimous - our proxy Gacy should pursue youth work. None saw any hint of contrary indications. Obviously they were simply unable to see anything of importance. The advice they gave was conspicuously bad, they missed crucial personality traits, their description of his past was vague, and their prediction of his future was impossible. Naturally all this was an enormous challenge to my believing mind. ---------------- More on the website[/b] Blessings! Quote Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:18 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 2 by Therese Hamilton Ouranos, Now that is a solution for easy reading! Bold the text. I assume that's what you did. Understanding Astrology is the latest (and most likely final offering) of Australian Geoffrey Dean (now in his late 80s) and others. Former astrologer Geoffrey Dean is well known as the major critique person of the way astrology is practiced today. I have corresponded with him off and on via email, and knew him in person in the 1980s-1990s. My computer won't handle the large files on the site you referenced, so I have purchased the hard bound book.. It's really a beautifully published book of 948 pages, nicely laid out and easy to read. Many graphics and photos to break up the text which is in various sizes. Considering the work that went into the book, it's a steal for about $60 USD (shipping is extra). I recommend the book to anyone who is genuinely interested in astrological research. But don't expect the book give you support for astrology as it is practiced today. I still have not had time to read through the entire book, and tend to flip it open to study various research projects. Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Quote Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:29 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 3 by Martin Gansten Ouranos wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:18 pmVerle had picked Gacy for the experiment because Gacy's chart should portray a clear picture of a sadistic sexually motivated killer. According to Verle, if astrologers are able to spot personality traits and destinies in birth charts, then they should have no trouble with this one. They might not pinpoint a killer (who after all is not exactly your typical everyday client) but they should at least be able to pick up negative influences. Indeed, and of course there is also a difference between what we see as astrologers and what we choose to express to the client. But to me the chart is a very neat illustration of sidereal versus tropical indications. Tropically, the ruler of the ascendant (and of Fortune, and probably of the nativity as a whole) is Jupiter, which is in the 7th with a partile trine from Venus. Sidereally, the same role is played by Mars, which is in the 7th with an applying square from Mercury. To keep things objective, here are a couple of passages from Firmicus which, although not describing this exact configuration, seem close enough to give an idea (in Bram's somewhat loose translation, as I have it handy for copy-pasting): III 11: 9. Mercury together with Mars in the seventh house, that is, the descendant, by day compels the natives to kill their women or wives with their own hands, or they kill themselves or another because of a woman or because of monstrous desires in love. They will be imprisoned and condemned for some such crime. 10. In general, those who have Mercury together with Mars in this house become involved in death or homicide, according to the nature and quality of the signs. They become rioters, bandits, assassins, pirates, or the like and, apprehended for these crimes, are punished with a severe sentence. 11. If it is a nocturnal chart, they will be cheated by unjust acts of a woman, or be married to a shrew and have children from her, or be always involved in important afflictions. VI 11: 8. If Mars and Mercury are in square aspect and Mars holds the superior part of a right square, this indicates a fearful outcome to all evils. It weakens the native with constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, makes him the victim of evil rumors, and stirs up dreadful dangers of accusations, so that all these difficulties end in prison. These evils grow stronger in a diurnal chart but are lessened in a nocturnal. 9. But if Mercury holds the superior position and the right side, he makes the natives wicked and malicious, displaying poisonous desires, carrying on all kinds of fraud, and greedily devouring the goods of others. They pass from one victim to another, always rapaciously seeking what they can get; eventually they are made destitute by their wicked tricks and clever frauds and in the end lose all their possessions. https://astrology.martingansten.com/ Quote Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:03 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 4 by Ouranos My computer won't handle the large files on the site you referenced, so I have purchased the hard bound book.. Thank you Therese. Yes they also have an offer for a hard copy on the site for those interested. I like the critics coming from people who practice or know about astrology. What we see today as a trend is a form of 'spiritualized astrology'. Everything seasoned with Gods, spiritual practices, psychological explanations and you name it. Not that these explanations are wrong by itself but they have nothing to do with astrology. It is similar to a religious language where you have to believe in order to understand. I prefer to understand and then believe after. But to me the chart is a very neat illustration of sidereal versus tropical indications. Yes Martin, this chart is a mousetrap. And I am glad that you point out the cracks from a different angle. A midpoint analysis of the personal points in the chart of Gacy also tells a different story. Beware of what our eyes see. Another chart like this is Landru, the French serial killer. I shall revisit 'An astrologer looks at murder' by Barbara Watters. Be well! Ouranos Blessings! Quote Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:48 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 5 by Deb Hi Ouranos, Theresa I'll have to ask you not to make your posts completely emboldened. We have a forum policy stating that you shouldn't do this, and its distracting to have font styles vary so dramatically from post to post. Since I've already provided a solution for anyone needing larger clearer text, this is surely not necessary. [Wei, so as not to derail this thread, I have moved your follow-up post to the thread discussing the forum upgrade. Quote Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:17 am
Re: Astrology and Science 6 by Therese Hamilton Martin wrote: But to me [Gacy's] chart is a very neat illustration of sidereal versus tropical indications. Tropically, the ruler of the ascendant (and of Fortune, and probably of the nativity as a whole) is Jupiter, which is in the 7th with a partile trine from Venus. Sidereally, the same role is played by Mars, which is in the 7th with an applying square from Mercury. To keep things objective, here are a couple of passages from Firmicus which, although not describing this exact configuration, seem close enough to give an idea (in Bram's somewhat loose translation, as I have it handy for copy-pasting): These quotes from Firmicus are a potent reminder that there is much wisdom and truth that we have forgotten or were never aware of in the old astrological texts. I have often said to myself and others that a really successful predictive astrologer must have a photographic memory, as it's necessary to remember astrological experience through the ages and with our own personal clients. Here is the sidereal chart that Martin discussed. Note that with equal cusps measured from the ascendant, Mars and Mercury are the planets closest to the angular cusps of greatest influence. These are the two planets referenced in Martin's Firmicus quotes, Mars being the sidereal Ascendant lord (Scorpio). Mercury is only a degree from the Nadir, and is the 8th lord in full aspect to Mars. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Quote Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:58 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 7 by Ouranos Here is a short list of some significant midpoints in Gacy's chart. I have removed some planets for clarity. 1) The Mercury/Mars midpoint (hasty reactions, malice, quarrelsome) = Hades Abusive words, cries for help, to be ready for a misdeed. Hades is also conjunct Admetos which stands for hindrance, inhibition, death or standstill. And Mars/Saturn (natural formula for death) All 5 planets Mercury, Mars, Saturn, Admetos and Hades connected to the ASC in Scorpio. 2) The Sun/Moon conjunction in opposition to Neptune in the midpoint Saturn/Pluto Ebertin mentions this midpoint in mass murderers. Cruelty, tendency to violence, cold-hearthtedness. A fanatical adherence to one's principles once they have been adopted. Venus connected by hard aspect to Sun/Moon/Neptune = a love of solitude and seclusion, renunciation to love. Blessings! Attachments John Gacy_selected midpoints.png Viewed 7033 times 127.34 KiB Quote Sat Sep 30, 2023 12:12 am
Re: Astrology and Science 8 by Stefan Well nice study Ouranus, thanks. The first thought goes not to a serial killer obviously. Looked first in the declinations for "hidden aspects" that could reveal such strange destiny. Mars is // parallel with an out of bounds Pluto which would be a nice fit but slightly out of orb in my standard. As I use normally a 1' degree orb for parallels. Here the Mars Pluto is 1'15' orb which may not be strong. Then I notice the angular Mars square mercury. Mercury in 3rd (mind) or whole sign 4th upbringing. If his tropical ascendant is Sag ( 1' rising) then Jupiter is in the bending and is in a "crise mode" . Then I notice that he is born on a Solar eclipse day in the 4th house of parental issues. Giving a unpredictable and destiny filled life. With possible hard to digest experiences from childhood. In wiki it says that his father was a bad influence. "Gacy was close to his mother and two sisters, but had a difficult relationship with his father, an alcoholic who was verbally and physically abusive to his family.[8][9][2][a] The elder Gacy frequently belittled his son, calling him "dumb and stupid" and comparing him unfavorably with his sisters. One of Gacy's earliest childhood memories was of his father beating him with a leather belt at age four.[11] His mother tried to shield her son from his father's abuse, which resulted in accusations that he was a "sissy" and a "mama's boy" who would "probably grow up queer".[8][4][12] In 1949, Gacy's father whipped him with a razor strop after he and another boy were caught sexually fondling a young girl.[13] The same year, a family friend began to occasionally molest Gacy.[8][9] Gacy never told his father, afraid that his father would blame him.[14] Despite their challenging relationship, Moon is further on the fixed star Scheat with a mercury Mars nature. The eclipse he was born on is in the nakshatra "Uttara Bhadrapada" which is symbolised with " a man with two faces" sometimes inclined to being a double nature. This nakshatra is associated with sexual perversions sometimes. I think Epstein had placements here ? Another serial killer born on an eclipse in 4th house: Ted Bundy https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted Quote Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:00 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 9 by Deb Does anyone object if I move this thread over to the philosophy & science? That seems a better place to develop this kind of interesting discussion. If I get no objections I'll probably do that in a few days. Quote Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:32 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 10 by AstroGuy Hey there, Mixing astrology and science is a bit like blending art and technology - it can be fascinating! Astrology, rooted in ancient traditions, explores the cosmic influence on personalities and events. On the other hand, science seeks empirical evidence and measurable phenomena. Some modern astrologers try to bridge the gap by using psychological insights and statistical analyses to support astrological claims. For instance, there's a field called "astro-psychology" that attempts to connect astrological profiles with personality traits. However, it's important to acknowledge that astrology is more of a belief system, while science demands rigorous testing and proof. Combining them is a personal choice, but it's a complex and often debated topic. Ultimately, it's up to the individual to decide how they want to blend or separate these two worlds in their quest for understanding and meaning. Best, Quote Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:42 pm
Re: Astrology and Science 11 by Ouranos Thank you for your input AstroGuy, Ancient traditions explored events in relationship to the king or the country or climate conditions for crops and food. We find little evidence of personal horoscopes. Astro-psychology is more recent in history and leans more on soft aspects in a chart. To focus on events and increase your score on 'predictions' - get rid of the soft aspects and use only the hard ones (conjunction, square, opposition, semi-square, sesqui-quadrate). - blend the energy between the planets. For example Mars/Jupiter = success. Looking at the midpoint will qualify the success. - The problematic combination are with Saturn, Neptune, Hades and Admetos. - No rulership or signs considerations. - Hard aspects = manifestation - Soft aspects = psychological considerations, allies, on-the-side actors. - And finally, good or bad is determined by the planets, not the aspect. Best to you, Ouranos Blessings! Quote Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:37 pm