Delineation should begin with a suspicion: "Am I doing the right thing?" It also should end with that suspicion. A chart is not a diary, but when reading charts, we can easily fall into the trap of feeling guided along as if we were reading a diary. Hesitancy is a good thing. When considering the specifics of a chart, it's good to remember: prototype theory.

hi jason

that is an interesting perspective... i think it's healthy to question ourselves and why we do the things we do.. i make a lot of parallels with music and astrology because that is the other vocation i have pursued in life.. in music i don't ask this question.. in fact music for me is like jumping into the ocean and going for a swim with friends.. its a creative process that i generally always share with others.. i can sit at home and play drums or piano on my own though and when i do that, i do something similar when i am not working at developing more of the language skills that go with playing music.. but i have also noticed that one doesn't have to be some amazing linguist to make great music.. sometimes the simplest ideas will do..

i basically approach my love of astrology in a similar manner.. it is a creative process.. i am sure if i was working in a counseling context with astrology it would have to listen a lot more and be receptive to learning more of astrology thru the people who were seeking understanding into their own lives, thru the chart.. of course i try to do this with my own chart and for those who i am close with..

there are as many paths in life and astrology as their are in all of our journey here on the planet... i think everyone has to find what works best for them and accept others are ultimately trying to do the same for themselves..

but after all that i have said, i do agree with you it is good to question ourselves and what our motives are in everything.. what is our intent? is it fulfilling and rewarding for us and others, or is it something else? they are not easy questions to answer, but sometimes it is easy too! i think most people come to public sites like skyscript to learn more about astrology.. that is my own take and general idea.. i can learn from others and perhaps someone can learn from me too.. it is a place to exchange ideas and insights and learn from each other..

happy trails and thanks for the post and comic strip..

Heya James,

Good to hear from you. Thanks again for the Brian Clark recommendation. I picked up a copy and plan on reading it when I finish up the book I'm currently reading. Very cool to learn that you have a musical calling on top of the astrology! I was in a few bands when I was younger (as the singer w very little to no actual instrumental talent) and have always been a music geek, for sure. Another aside I guess we have in common. I also fancy myself a bit of a painter- did/do you ever get into that?

james_m wrote:.. sometimes the simplest ideas will do..

Yeah. Absolutely. I agree.

My intention wasn't to come off preachy when I posted this 'thought of the day" thing. Maybe it came off that way and I should have phrased what I was trying to say more clearly. Used "I" statements, or something. I'll remember that for next time, because I posted this with the intention of making a spot in the philo/sci subforum where I (or others) could come and drop off quick thoughts worth pondering further and for future reference (it'd be great if others used the thread for that too, if they ever feel up for it). Feedback/discussion on these type of thoughts is helpful. Gets me to develop them further (or maybe not waste any more time on them if valid refutes come through!).

james_m wrote: i basically approach my love of astrology in a similar manner.. it is a creative process.. i am sure if i was working in a counseling context with astrology it would have to listen a lot more and be receptive to learning more of astrology thru the people who were seeking understanding into their own lives, thru the chart.. of course i try to do this with my own chart and for those who i am close with..

there are as many paths in life and astrology as their are in all of our journey here on the planet... i think everyone has to find what works best for them and accept others are ultimately trying to do the same for themselves..

I agree with all that you had to say in the quoted text above. It's a process one has to figure out for themselves, and each person should practice as they wish.

The specific reason I was thinking about what I posted this morning was because I have someone who I've been sort of/kind of been working one on one with to teach astrology to and I realized after an interaction with her yesterday that I'm not sure how well it's been going LOL. In a nutshell, she's young, and in that phase of early study that most of us probably experienced - she wants to cast a chart for anything and everything. Her boss seemed off at work that day - she wants to cast a chart and asks me to help her read it (Sometimes people are just off for a day, I tell her, why involve astrology in it? - but nope, she insists there's more to it). There's some other person she doesn't like - she looks up that person's birthdate in the ephemeris and wants to find everything that's wrong with them according to the planets, etc. Then there's the way she either gets caught up in a specific theory "ooooh that planet is in its detriment - that's SO BAD" (or the opposite if it has dignity) - everything is extremes (like some authors!), she doesn't really incorporate nuance or consideration for the weighing of various factors well, yet (she also spends A LOT of time on social media - and I warned her about believing everything she reads out there - but, what can I do -shrug- ). So the post was really a kind of reminder/pact with myself about what I hope to try and bring the focus to in going forward with her. We'll see, I guess.... say a little pray for me, James, I might need it!

Jason,
Even if you do not convince her with your approach, at least you will have learned something about yourself.
When in doubt with the validity of her approach, ask for a feeling. Maybe you will get to the root of the problem.

Good luck!

Jason wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:55 pm she wants to cast a chart for anything and everything.

This is the curiosity of a beginner. When I first started learning horary, Deb also advised me not to constantly use the horary chart to see when the mailman would arrive at my doorstep.

With the passage of time and the growth of personal experience, she will come to understand your good intentions and acquire more expertise in applying astrology in various situations.

Ouranos - Good advice, and thanks for the support : )

Wei - Yes. Definitely beginner's excitement. Understandable, too. Funnily, she's gotten herself a copy of Frawley's book on Horary and reminded me that he wrote something to the effect of "Don't listen to people who tell you not to cast a chart for everything when you are learning." I didn't want to put her off by debating it, nor did I have his text on hand to read the lines myself, so I was just like, "OK. Point taken!" LOL! The thing is, of course one learns through testing the system, but there's a difference between casting charts willy-nilly before you've assimilated some of the knowledge necessary to understanding them and testing the system with a specific strategy in mind. (Who knows, maybe I am "mansplaining" like she said - but Frawley?! Frawley isn't a "mansplainer" in her eyes?! This is what I'm dealing with! lmao)

thanks jason

well she has wise council in you if she is smart enough to take it!! i admire her attraction to the art.. she will have to learn the art as best she can.. hopefully her interest is sustained and she benefits from it as we all do here in our own way... i admire you for trying!! cheers james

Hi, Jason.

You said,

Wei - Yes. Definitely beginner's excitement. Understandable, too. Funnily, she's gotten herself a copy of Frawley's book on Horary and reminded me that he wrote something to the effect of "Don't listen to people who tell you not to cast a chart for everything when you are learning." I didn't want to put her off by debating it, nor did I have his text on hand to read the lines myself, so I was just like, "OK. Point taken!" LOL! The thing is, of course one learns through testing the system, but there's a difference between casting charts willy-nilly before you've assimilated some of the knowledge necessary to understanding them and testing the system with a specific strategy in mind. (Who knows, maybe I am "mansplaining" like she said - but Frawley?! Frawley isn't a "mansplainer" in her eyes?! This is what I'm dealing with! lmao)

I too have a copy of John Frawley's book. He did say that. This is why I cast a chart for everything like your student. LOL.

My thinking on this subject is partly influenced by my experiences in other divinatory systems, however.

Neptune789 wrote: I too have a copy of John Frawley's book. He did say that. This is why I cast a chart for everything like your student. LOL.

Hey again, Neptune. Thanks for confirming the paraphrase I made there. I have the book here somewhere, but haven't bothered to pull it out and go fishing for his stating that, I just took her word for it. One thing I should mention is that she's not a "student" in the sense that we have some kind of formal arrangement where I take any money from her. It's more along the lines of a long conversation that we pick up and put down week to week. That unstructured approach could be partly to blame. I realize that. I've told her that a class might be the best way to learn, but that isn't an option she can afford right now.

After having gotten myself into this thread I've been thinking about my position on the subject and realize that going forward it's probably best that I don't just give her answers outright. At this point she's casting these charts and when she feels stuck, she calls me for an opinion or insight and I just give it to her. I don't think she's really learning that way, and it's possibly even adding to her confusion. She hasn't had to reason things for out for herself and absorb the information in a way that offers those "aha!" moments one doesn't forget. For example, she brought me a chart once that concerned moving from one city to another. When I asked her what she thought it was saying, she focused on the 4th house of the chart only, concerning the move. Then went to the 10th to talk about job prospects. Then the 7th to look for a lover in this imagined move! When I brought up using the 1st and 7th (for here/there) and incorporating that information with the 4th (home) she was confused - "How's the 7th not a new boyriend?" - so rather than thinking of the context of the specific question she's asking - it's like she's mixing horary with natal and trying to write these stories all around the question, or answer multiple things in one question rather than focus on the matter at hand. It's one thing for her to understand she's reading symbols with the planets and signs, but she seems to stop there. Considering other symbolic info in the chart trips her up a bit. This is why I keep on suggesting she slow down, really go over the charts she has done already and take them apart layer by layer. Focus her efforts rather than rushing into the next "catastrophic" moment that requires a chart (lol). Going forward, I think I'm going to put more focus on making her do the work. Not just give answers. This could slow her down a little and hopefully prove helpful.

Neptune789 wrote: My thinking on this subject is partly influenced by my experiences in other divinatory systems, however.

Would you mind sharing a little more about this? My interest is piqued.

Hi, Jason.

You said,

Would you mind sharing a little more about this? My interest is piqued.

I would imagine that the same conversation occurs in every tradition. In the Chinese tradition, there is a saying, "We use divination to resolve doubts. If there is no doubt, what should we divine for?" (卜以決疑，不疑何卜。) Some people take it to mean that we should divine only when there is a real question to be solved. I disagree with this viewpoint.

My position is this:

1. If the system works for big things, it must work for small things as well.

2. If we cannot work the system for even small things, how can we expect to work the system for big things, when they arise?

3. If we do not work the system for small things frequently, we will not be able to accumulate enough practice to work the system for big things.

4. By working the system for small things frequently, secrets of the system will be revealed. Using Yijing as an example,

(a) I keep a journal of my divinations.

(b) Sometimes, the meaning of a particular line reading in Yijing is unclear to me. (Quite apart from possible failures of imagination on my part, in many cases, the real meaning of specific words or phrases in Yijing is ambiguous even to Chinese scholars. The same word may be explained three different ways in two books.)

(c) Then, as the situation unfolds, I will be able to see what the line reading actually meant.

(d) Then, if the line reading occurs again in a similar context, I will be able to refer to my previous record to understand the line reading.

I believe this is why, in ancient China, the Court maintained such a detailed record of oracle-bone divinations. They were trying to do the same thing.

5. The ancients also worked the system for small things. In the case of Yijing, scholars in ancient times liked to play a game known as 覆射 (Fu4 She4). To play this game, a person would choose a random object. Then, he would hide the random object, e.g., by putting it under an upside-down bowl. Then, other participants would cast hexagrams. The person, who could divine what the object was, would be the winner.

In the case of Western astrology, I am informed that William Lilly, in his spare time, liked to ask his servants to hide objects, so that he could divine their locations for his merriment.

6. Going back to Point #4 above, every reference book on Yijing has a different take on: (a) how to interpret the result, if more than one line is moving, (b) how to understand the function of the second hexagram, (if it has a function at all), (c) the meaning of each line, etc. The only way, in my view, to decide on these issues for oneself is to keep a journal and review it from time to time.

7. From the perspective of ordinary consciousness, there are big things and small things. From the perspective of non-ordinary consciousness, there are no big things or small things. Divination works on level of non-ordinary consciousness.

8. Learning divination is like learning a language. To learn a language, you have to immerse yourself in the language (e.g., read and listen as much as possible). Initially, you will only catch a few words here and there. With time, you will be able to catch whole sentences. It is important to study the grammar. However, it would be wrong to neglect immersion in favour of "mastering the grammar". The same may be true of divination.

To take this analogy further, if we divine frequently about small things, initially we may only be able to decipher a small portion of our divination results. In time, however, we may find ourselves able to decipher a larger and larger portion of our divination results.

That being said, if we only cast hexagrams frequently and do not think hard about our divination results, then there will be no improvement. We should cast hexagrams frequently. Whenever the situation turned out in a way that was different from how we predicted based on our divination results, we should think about the reasons. These reasons may include a change in circumstances. (I believe that divination changes the future. This is analogous to Schrodinger's thought experiment. By making a prediction, we can strive to avoid the prediction coming true.) These reasons may also include our failure to decipher the divination result properly in the first place. Also, if we obtain a divination result that is difficult to understand, we should keep an eye out on the situation as it unfolds, so that our ability to decipher divination results will be improved for next time.

Like many things in life, in divination, failure is often the best teacher, provided that we are willing to learn from it. One should make many incorrect predictions and learn from them, and then one can start making correct predictions.

(None of this obviates the need for studying, of course. To study, one should pick up a good reference book with a lot of real-life examples. Then, one should work through these examples along with the author. One should also keep several good reference books on hand, so that one can refer to them, when the divination result is obscure.)

Thanks for the very thorough, thoughtful reply, Neptune. There's much to consider throughout it. I agree with all of your points generally. I think you sum up the heart of the matter I'm grappling with very concisely here:

Neptune789 wrote: That being said, if we only cast hexagrams frequently and do not think hard about our divination results, then there will be no improvement.

and here:

Neptune789 wrote: Also, if we obtain a divination result that is difficult to understand, we should keep an eye out on the situation as it unfolds, so that our ability to decipher divination results will be improved for next time.

Regarding the latter quote, this is one of the reasons I think slowing things down can be helpful in the specific situation I'm in. If she has produced 10 charts in a short span of time and is keeping up with how the results of those questions are unfolding, and all the while continues casting charts and keeping up with those too... well, eventually, all her time is spent looking at charts rather than living out her life, right? (An extreme example, I know, but I do know people who won't/can't do anything without considering the astrology of it first, so it's not really all that impossible of a situation to fall into. It can be a slippery slope, in my opinion - not far from: "we won't get along he's a Virgo" - just dressed up in fancier techniques)

:)

I would like to express some thoughts...

I deeply love my teachers and friends in astrology community. However, my relationship with them is not ideal, and I acknowledge that it is due to reasons on both sides.

In the past, I believed that astrologers were the closest to "the divine (God)." I thought they should be the most knowledgeable and understanding individuals. Because of their understanding of fate, I expected them not to be interested in wealth, not to be elated by good fortune, and to silently endure misfortune and setbacks.

Yet, I forgot that astrologers, like all spiritual masters, are human. They are not divine beings.

I am also human.

My intention is to suggest not taking the words of masters and teachers too literally. Sometimes, they may express themselves unclearly, using metaphorical language, and perhaps even they themselves may not fully understand their own meanings. Each of us selects and interprets others' words based on our own experiences. However, it's also essential not to completely reject the words of teachers and masters. I often reflect on what teachers have said in the past and realize that only through personal experience and firsthand encounters can I truly understand their meanings.

All of this is an inevitable part of the journey of learning and growth.

Neptune789 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:44 am I would imagine that the same conversation occurs in every tradition. In the Chinese tradition, there is a saying, "We use divination to resolve doubts. If there is no doubt, what should we divine for?" (卜以決疑，不疑何卜。)

Using Jung's theory of consciousness and the unconscious, I interpret this passage like this :

If there isn't some degree of "disruption" or conflict in the unconscious, there might not be an emergence of those thoughts into the conscious realm. This, in turn, suggests that without the stirring of the unconscious, we may not actively engage in activities such as divination or astrology.

Neptune789 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:44 amIf we cannot work the system for even small things, how can we expect to work the system for big things, when they arise?

I agree that this is an essential part of the learning journey and my life is ordinary, lacking big events for me to predict.

Jason wrote: all her time is spent looking at charts rather than living out her life, right?

Each time I wait for a delivery, I feel a bit anxious, fearing that I might miss it and cause inconvenience to the delivery man who would have to make another attempt.

Therefore, I often use horary astrology to predict when the delivery man will arrive.

But now, I've become a bit lazy and don't feel like consulting divination tools everytime.

If I miss a delivery, I'll coordinate with the delivery man to schedule a convenient time for them to make another attempt.

Alternatively, in the future, I hope to track the delivery vehicle's route in real-time using GPS, accurately estimate its arrival time. This way, I won't need to rely on divination tools to predict when the delivery will reach my home, and I'll reduce the chances of missing the delivery.

I don't know... what troubles and anxieties she might have. I feel... taking things slow and cultivating patience could be beneficial. Haha.

I still practice horary to predict when the books I've purchased will arrive, whenever I feel the need for divination.

Help is always available.