Recently, I came across the website of a teacher of Chinese metaphysics. I wondered whether he was the real deal. The course fees were rather expensive (for someone on an average salary in North America). However, if he were the real deal, then they would be quite cheap. I asked, "Is so-and-so a real teacher?"

After I cast the chart, I realized I had a problem - should I assign the teacher to the 7th House or the 9th House?

1. As a public figure, and as someone, who does not neatly fall into any house, perhaps he should be assigned the 7th House. I say "as some, who does not neatly fall into any house", because he is not my teacher yet. He is just someone I came across on the internet.

2. However, the context of the question was me thinking about registering for his course - not immediately, but potentially sometime down the line. Therefore, as a teacher, perhaps he should be assigned the 9th House.

After some deliberation, I decided that Option #2 was the right approach.

1. The 9th House cusp was in Taurus. It was ruled by Venus. Venus was in Scorpio, where she was in detriment. This did not bode well for the teachings.

2. Venus was at 20 Degrees Scorpio. The 3rd House cusp was at 24 Degrees Scorpio. Applying the five-degree rule, Venus could be put into the 3rd House. The 3rd House is in opposition to the 9th House. The 9th House can be considered the house of true teachers. Therefore, the 3rd House can be considered the house of false teachers.

Of course, the 3rd House can also be considered my neighbourhood. Perhaps it means nothing more than the fact that the teacher had just come into my view on the internet (e.g., my neighbourhood).

3. Interestingly, Mars ruled the 3rd (Scorpio), 7th (Aries) and 8th (Aries) Houses. I decided to look at Mars, just in case the teacher should be assigned the 7th House rather than the 9th House. Mars was at 20 Degrees Sagittarius. It did not have term or face, (at least according to the table of terms that I worked with). It was peregrine.

4. Mars was not combust, however, if we consider the sign boundaries as a barrier to combustion. The Sun was at 0 Degree Capricorn. Mars was not aided or afflicted by any other planet.

5. The Ascendant was in Libra. The Moon was in Taurus, (but in the 8th House). I decided that, despite the Ascendant being in Libra, Venus must be given to the teacher rather than me, as I had nothing to do with the answer of the question. Whether the teacher was real or not had nothing to do with me. The fact that the Moon was in Taurus could just mean that I was thinking about the teacher.

6. If we consider natural significators, then Mercury should be a suitable significator for a teacher of Chinese metaphysics. (For the most part, the teachings would be the equivalent of astrology in the West.) Mercury was retrograde and combust.

I came to the conclusion that, based on the horary chart, the teacher was not for me. I cannot say that the teacher was a false teacher. His website seemed genuine enough. I am always wary of putting too much stock in astrology and divination. It is only one information point among many. With divination, if you ask the same question over a period of time, (perhaps on the basis that there was a change in circumstances), sometimes the results change. Different divination methods may yield different results.

Any thoughts? Am I doing this correctly?

Neptune,

Can you share your chart please?

Thank you,
Ouranos

Yes, I will share the chart. (I thought new members were not allowed to share charts. Since I was asked to do so, I will do it.)

Hi Neptune789,

I'd give the teacher and their teachings the 9th, and I agree with your conclusion that the teacher is not for you.

My advice is to check out pages* 429-430 of Christian Astrology . I think these could be helpful in considering your question. You asked specifically about the legitimacy of the teacher, which the section on p.430 addresses, but I think it's probably fair to say that underneath that question is also the matter of "Would these studies, with this person, be a beneficial undertaking?" A teacher can be knowledgeable on a subject but still not be the right teacher for us.

Also, you specifically mention the teaching fees, and the 2nd-8th house (your money-debts incurred) activity in the chart doesn't really speak to what I'd call a wise investment.

Hope this helps.

*manuscript pages

He is 7th House.

MA L7 in Sag in the 3rd (his turned 9th) = A foreign spiritual leader in Chinese Metaphysics.
The MO applying to JU R (ruling MA and natural for teachers)
Yes he is a real teacher.

If we delve into this MA

Intercepted, peregrine, mutable and cadent, under the beams (I would question his credentials or status)
But strong by direction, speed and oriental to the Sun in trine to NN. (Self-knowledge with MA and revisiting the tradition by being oriental to the SU. Someone who refreshes the profession.)

Your decision to step out of the registration is financial.
VE in Fall in the 2nd house ruling the MO exalted in Taurus which is next applying to a R JU in the 8th.
Plus SU cj ME R on the 4th (end-of-the matter). An important decision is postponed.

5. The Ascendant was in Libra. The Moon was in Taurus, (but in the 8th House). I decided that, despite the Ascendant being in Libra, Venus must be given to the teacher rather than me, as I had nothing to do with the answer of the question. Whether the teacher was real or not had nothing to do with me.

This is your question!


Best to you,
Ouranos

Hi, Jason.

Thank you for your suggestion. As a beginner, I have not studied Christian Astrology yet. Your response is perhaps a prompting from the universe for me to do so.

Hi, Ouranos.

I will post more in response to your response. (It’s late here where I am.)

My mind is just blown. I absolutely need to know how you got to where you are in astrology (e.g. what texts, what courses, what method or program of study, etc.).

All I can say is whoa.

Hi, Ouranos.

Part 1

You said,

He is 7th House.

MA L7 in Sag in the 3rd (his turned 9th) = A foreign spiritual leader in Chinese Metaphysics.
The MO applying to JU R (ruling MA and natural for teachers)
Yes he is a real teacher.

Yes, he is a "foreign spiritual leader in Chinese Metaphysics".

I think I get the "The MO applying to JU R (ruling MA and natural for teachers)" part. You mean:

(1) I am the Moon.

(2) He is Mars.

(3) Jupiter is the dispositor of Mars. Therefore, if we want to learn more about Mars, we should look at Jupiter.

(4) Furthermore, the Moon is about to collide with Jupiter. This shows me thinking about registering for his course. This further confirms that we should look at Jupiter to learn more about Mars.

(5) Because Mars is ruled by Jupiter, who is the natural significator of teacher, therefore, we can conclude that he is a real teacher.

If I understand you correctly, supposing that, in a different chart, Mars's dispositor were Mercury, then we can conclude that he is not a real teacher, (because Mercury is the natural significator of rogues).

Part 2

Intercepted, peregrine, mutable and cadent, under the beams (I would question his credentials or status)
But strong by direction, speed and oriental to the Sun in trine to NN. (Self-knowledge with MA and revisiting the tradition by being oriental to the SU. Someone who refreshes the profession.)

Your description is very possibly true, (although I cannot confirm it, since I have never interacted with him). I say it is possibly true, because:

(1) Even real teachers sometimes inflate their credentials or status. For instance, a real teacher might have only met a master a few times. Then, he might start telling people that he is a longtime student of said master, (when this creates a totally different impression from what actually happened). (I am not saying that this applies to the person at issue. However, this sort of thing is known to happen.)

(2) I think "someone who refreshes the profession" is true of many "foreign spiritual leaders in Chinese Metaphysics", provided that they are indeed real teachers.

I understand the terminology used. However, I have several questions as follows:

(1) Are you saying that the accidental debilities here, e.g., "Intercepted, peregrine, mutable and cadent, under the beams", show that this person might not be completely forthright about himself and his experiences?

(2) You said, "Self-knowledge with MA". Are you saying that Mars is a sign of someone, who is self-taught?

(3) Generally, where you spoke of "Intercepted, peregrine, mutable and cadent, under the beams", "strong by direction, speed and oriental to the Sun in trine to NN", "Self-knowledge with MA and revisiting the tradition by being oriental to the SU", etc., where can I find the attributions used by you? (E.g., What texts should I read on these issue?)

Part 3

Your decision to step out of the registration is financial.
VE in Fall in the 2nd house ruling the MO exalted in Taurus which is next applying to a R JU in the 8th.
Plus SU cj ME R on the 4th (end-of-the matter). An important decision is postponed.

To some extent, my decision not to register right now is financial. (I wouldn't say it is entirely financial. The thing is that there are so many "real teachers" out there. It is not possible to register for every single course taught by a "real teacher". I have to consider timing as well, e.g., work-life balance, etc. However, maybe the chart knows me better than I do!)

You mean,

(1) I am Venus and am in fall. Because I am in the 2nd House, this shows that my fall is money-related.

(2) You said, "ruling the MO exalted in Taurus which is next applying to a R JU in the 8th." I am not sure if I understand this part. You mean,

(a) The Moon is my more internal, changeable side, e.g., thinking and feeling. Venus is my more external, non-changeable side, e.g., connected with my personal identity and interactions with the world.

(b) The Moon is exalted in Taurus and applying to a retrograde Jupiter. This shows that my thinking and feeling side is excited (e.g., because it is exalted) and wants to register for the course (e.g., because it is applying to a retrograde Jupiter). (The retrogration of Jupiter here is not a debility. It merely shows that Jupiter is coming my way.)

(c) However, because Moon is ruled by Venus, therefore the Moon cannot act freely. Venus is in fall due to financial issues. (I note that the Moon and Venus are in opposition. This shows a conflict between my personal reality (e.g., Venus) and what I want to do (e.g., the Moon).)

(3) You said, "Plus SU cj ME R on the 4th (end-of-the matter). An important decision is postponed." This part is obscure to me. I get the idea that the Imum Coeli is the "end of the matter". However, what does the Sun and Mercury respectively symbolize here?

Part 4

The most important question I have in response to your question, I suppose, is how you came to decide that the person at issue here is the 7th House?

Part 5

Lastly, all I can say is "wow". This one post of yours has doubled my faith in Western astrology.

The only text on Western astrology I have read more than half of is John Frawley's The Horary Textbook. (I read the first half, e.g., the theoretical parts. I have only skimmed the second half, where he went through possible questions by houses and how to solve those questions.)

What is the next book I should read? Whose courses should I sign up for? Do you offer courses? Do you offer private instructions? Aside from courses, how should I study Western astrology? Should I work through a lot of examples in other people's books? Should I cast a lot of my own charts and examine them? Should I read and reread William Lilly's Christian Astrology?

If I understand you correctly, supposing that, in a different chart, Mars's dispositor were Mercury, then we can conclude that he is not a real teacher, (because Mercury is the natural significator of rogues).

No, the house placement and dignity are to be considered.

(1) Are you saying that the accidental debilities here, e.g., "Intercepted, peregrine, mutable and cadent, under the beams", show that this person might not be completely forthright about himself and his experiences?

Yes. Intercepted (hemmed in), peregrine, mutable and cadent (could be that he does not have all the legal papers or forthright permission to be who he is. Like an 'outsider' who has no association with the territory (Deb Houlding quoted by Andrew Bevan).

(2) You said, "Self-knowledge with MA". Are you saying that Mars is a sign of someone, who is self-taught?

Yes, for most part. Someone who initiates something new by himself.

(3) Generally, where you spoke of "Intercepted, peregrine, mutable and cadent, under the beams", "strong by direction, speed and oriental to the Sun in trine to NN", "Self-knowledge with MA and revisiting the tradition by being oriental to the SU", etc., where can I find the attributions used by you? (E.g., What texts should I read on these issue?)

Lots of references here on Skyscript - Horary Astrology section
https://skyscript.co.uk/books.html

(2) You said, "ruling the MO exalted in Taurus which is next applying to a R JU in the 8th." I am not sure if I understand this part. You mean,

The MO is your co-ruler (You) applying to a retrograde planet in the 8th. The possibility is there but you have to consider the expensive fees (Jupiter). Jupiter also rules your 6th House (the schedule) and your learning expectations.

(3) You said, "Plus SU cj ME R on the 4th (end-of-the matter). An important decision is postponed." This part is obscure to me. I get the idea that the Imum Coeli is the "end of the matter". However, what does the Sun and Mercury respectively symbolize here?

Sun/MercuryR is decision making. Angular (important) with Mercury R and combust = Hard to make a clear decision.

The most important question I have in response to your question, I suppose, is how you came to decide that the person at issue here is the 7th House?

The 7th House is the person inquired about in Horary. He is not your teacher yet.

What is the next book I should read? Whose courses should I sign up for? Do you offer courses? Do you offer private instructions? Aside from courses, how should I study Western astrology? Should I work through a lot of examples in other people's books? Should I cast a lot of my own charts and examine them? Should I read and reread William Lilly's Christian Astrology?

Start with the section on Horary here on Skyscript and then you can build from there.
Many websites, books and links.
Please contact Deborah Houlding, she offers many courses and possibilities.
I taught astrology for 12 years but I am now retired and enjoy astrology for the 'fun' of it. No pressure. I am self-taught (Aries on the 9th) so my approach lacks in structure but the synapses of my brain are constantly making connections and I need to see tangible results with astrology. You can study astrology for 50 years and only see the tip of it. Call it a passion! I hope Artificial Intelligence will help us develop simplified tools and a better way to handle databases. The future of astrology looks promising!

Best to you,
Ouranos

Neptune789 wrote: Hi, Jason.

Thank you for your suggestion. As a beginner, I have not studied Christian Astrology yet. Your response is perhaps a prompting from the universe for me to do so.

I highly recommend Christian Astrology. But if it's too Olde Englishey for you (I've heard this complaint before when recommending it), a few others I'd also recommend:

Anthony Louis Horary Astrology Plain & Simple
Barbara Watters Horary Astrology & the Judgment of Events
Öner Döşer The Art of Horary Astrology

Also, Deb Houlding's The Houses: Temples of the Sky is a book every astrologer should have on their shelf (imo).

And, if you have the time and inclination to study more formally, as Ouranos mentioned, the STA offers an excellent course.

See you around!

Hi, Jason.

Thank you for your recommendations. I am okay with archaic language. I may just start with William Lilly.

I can see a lot of studying ahead of me!

I have to confess that I was very renunciative to Ouranos’ affiliation of the teacher to the 7th house. With Neptun678 and Jason I was convinced that he has to be signified by the lord of the 9th. But then after some time I reasoned that Ouranos might be right saying that this man was not Neptun678s teacher yet and his underlining of sticking with the question (and therefore also with the questioner himself I think): Somebody might be a spouse, a plumber, a father and a like-minded person, but is he–if I ask something about him–my spouse, my plumber, my father or a like-minded person to me? That is important for finding the right house and the planet that signifies him in a horary.

So I have to thank Ouranos for his remarks (and Neptun678 for his inquiry)! I learned an important thing.

Georgius wrote: I have to confess that I was very renunciative to Ouranos’ affiliation of the teacher to the 7th house. With Neptun678 and Jason I was convinced that he has to be signified by the lord of the 9th. But then after some time I reasoned that Ouranos might be right saying that this man was not Neptun678s teacher yet and his underlining of sticking with the question (and therefore also with the questioner himself I think): Somebody might be a spouse, a plumber, a father and a like-minded person, but is he–if I ask something about him–my spouse, my plumber, my father or a like-minded person to me? That is important for finding the right house and the planet that signifies him in a horary.

So I have to thank Ouranos for his remarks (and Neptun678 for his inquiry)! I learned an important thing.

Georgius, good to see you again, and thanks for this post. I appreciate your candor. Honestly, I grappled with the same questions when Ouranos used 7 for the teacher in question. I do see his reasoning though, and think it is an important lesson.

I'd like to add some food for thought, if I may - In horary, of course we strive for precision. Selecting the correct house is absolutely important. But I do think there are cases where a chart can be read from different perspectives and produce the same answer. In my opinion (and that's all it is: an opinion), this chart could be one of them. I don't think Neptune789 or I were actually "wrong" using 9.

The question's underlying theme revolved around Neptune789's 9th house matters (higher learning) - so maybe that's the reason for my thinking the chart can still be read using it. There's a dilemma with the 9th house, though - it has the same planetary ruler as the ASC. This is a good reason to look to another planet to signify the teacher - as Ouranos did with Mars/7.

But what about the Moon? It is exalted ruler of 9 and domicile ruler of 10. It applies to Jupiter (a guru). An exalted planet can be someone who is put on a pedestal, like a master or teacher, and 10 can signify someone who has authority. The Moon is in 8, in aversion to the ASC, and the question was about the legitimacy of the teacher - as if the teacher "can't be seen/known." It applies to Jupiter - a positive aspect, but in an unfortunate house, in the sign opposite to Venus (the querent).

Mercury, in the condition that it is in and on the angle is interesting, too, with Gemini intercepted in 9.

I don't know, I'm just throwing my thoughts out there. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, it's cool to have a chart like this to ruminate over - thanks Neptune!