happy new year everyone! apparently you are supposed to say this on the solstice according to my pagan friend and neighbour tony... well, i can't go back, but i can start fresh!

i was almost going to title this thread 'victimology' but thought it is more fun to start on a positive note.. and indeed, it is impossible to go back no matter what water has gone under the bridge... as heraklitus said - you can't step into the same river twice... in thinking about letting go of the past, it can be made more difficult by challenging aspects from saturn who oversees both the past and the future, maybe captured well with the god janus who is able to look back and also forward - our month january is named after that god.. i think janus has something in common with saturn.. maybe too it also has something to do with winter in the northern hemisphere where the seeds for the future are imagined at this dormant time of year.. people want to start off on a positive and encouraging note!

i picked up a copy of liz greenes latest astro book 'chiron in love' another dumb title that her publisher might have pushed on her - like that other book which i was sure was the case ' star signs for lovers' - a very insightful book that many serious astrologers might completely dismiss based on the title.. oh well.. titles are like first appearances.. one can make a positive or not so positive impression on others and it is in this area that there are also some similarities with the ideas around saturn and wearing masks...

to the question of letting go of the past, i think saturn plays an important role here.. in so far as we are able to come to terms with our individual experiences, especially the ones connected to painful events, or until we can - it is difficult to move forward... saturn seems to speak into all of this.. maybe especially so for those tropical astrologers with saturn in pisces at present!! reading this new book by greene on chiron, these themes are also emphasized... perhaps relationships are the area where these issues play out in the most challenging and potentially rewarding ways too, so maybe chiron in love isn't a bad title after all..

the past week or 2, i have been reviewing some of the relationships that i've had with people who i am able to examine the chiron placement and although it is easy to project, there may be something to this idea of 'the wounded healer' as one of a number of ideas associated with chiron.. earlier today i was curious to see where chiron is in the national charts for israel and happened to see that it is natally in an opposition to the may 14th 1948 sun position... the transit of uranus is presently opposing chiron in israels national chart ( as it moves towards an eventual conjunct with natal sun).. uranus has been in opposition to natal chiron since the horrible event of oct 7th... uranus eventually stations s sometime this january and eventually moves past the opposition to natal chiron sometime into april 2024... israels 1948 chart is complicated already by the square of sun to saturn.. now looking at it with sun opp chiron adds an additional weight of heaviness to the chart..

in my own relationships, i can think of being hurt and not understanding the basis for the actions of others.. after a life of experiences i have come to realize sometimes it has nothing to do with me and a lot more to do with the other person... of course having an astrology chart to see the dynamics at work is always helpful and something that has fueled my lifelong interest in astrology - that being to essentially understand myself and others better.. again - we can all fool ourselves easily and project any number of ideas onto a slate of symbols.. that said, it seems there is something to be said for incorporating chiron into the mix of symbols i am presently working with.. i have actually been doing this ( incorporating chiron) for a number of years, trying to understand the planetoid better... i have read a few of the books on this over the years - melanie rheinhart, zane stein are the 2 authors that come to mind... when my ubuntu computer got the update, i lost my solar fire on this computer and have had to resort to using morinus which doesn't include an option for chiron... fortunately i have a laptop which still has solar fire, so not all is lost!! on a really personal note, i have had some health issues that coincided with the transit of chiron over my sun last year.. i am not sure if that is some of the basis for what is now in the rear view mirror, but maybe..

i suppose in so far as we are able to understand ourselves better, we are capable of understanding our experiences with others better.. i think chiron offers some insights into this... all that i am trying to say is, putting a positive step in the right direction takes time, energy and an awareness of ones limitations.. this would include recognizing ones weaknesses and vulnerabilities too... many people opt to hide all that, but it doesn't lessen or make any of it go away - might in fact make it worse... masks only go so far in one looking at oneself honestly in the mirror!!!

feel free to comment on any of this.. i realize i have a tendency to ramble, lol.... maybe there is something for others to ponder and reflect on here with the idea that we can all move forward into the new year in a positive sense..

here is a nice song i am listening to on youtube with a title that might capture something of relevance here.. if nothing else, its a beautiful song..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaUxFcQ ... 2c&index=2

Happy New Year to you too, James! Hope it's a good one.

I appreciate the free-jazz approach you took in writing this post. Just riffing your thoughts off. :)

RE: Chiron. You've got my interest up. I don't know much about it and've never looked into it. In my chart, it makes a partile trine to Saturn. Maybe I'll check out the Greene book.

Happy New Year, James and Jason!

Like Jason, I am not too familiar with Chiron, as I haven't really considered it a sensitive point, but you piqued my interest. I have no experience with Chiron's delineation, so I turned to the cookbook in Solar Fire. Here is what it said:

CHIRON IN THE 4TH HOUSE
Early in your life, you may have felt rejected by your family. Your home life may have been painful. As you face your pain and find inner resources, you will develop compassion and the ability to help others heal their wounds.

CHIRON IN AQUARIUS
You may feel insecure within groups. You may also be sensitive to the wounds of humanity. It may be that you have suffered through friendships. You will have the ability to join groups with a cause, particularly those that heal humanity or teach spiritual ideals.

This is an anecdotal judgement at this point, but the 'spam-canned' delineation is actually fairly spot on! Yet, I have never considered myself a victim other than in circumstance.

What is a kid to do or can do?

There are configurations within my horoscope without Chiron that indicate the same, but I was a bit shocked that the canned reading did so well.

James: I know you have my horoscope. LOL

I will have to investigate this piece of solar system confetti, Chiron, further. I too had a wee bit of health trouble in the way-back-transit machine, Chiron was exactly conjunct my natal Moon. Coincidence? Perhaps.

Be well, Everyone, and all the best wishes for the New Year.

James: Devil's Advocate time...

Why the focus on Chiron and not/or the 4 biggest asteroids?

The reason I ask is that the 4 biggest asteroids make up about half of the mass of the entire asteroid belt, making them fairly significant celestial bodies.

Chiron is almost as much a comet as an asteroid and has a rather elliptical orbit. It's mass is maybe half that of the smallest of the four largest asteroids.

Is it the symbolism of the wounded healer that makes it more significant?

Be Well.

thanks jason and aj! thank you both! you both brighten my life..

yes - a free wheeling approach to commenting has something in common with improvisation and free jazz fits right in their!

aj - here is a quote from the 2060 chiron wikipedia page..
"Although it was initially called an asteroid and classified only as a minor planet with the designation "2060 Chiron", in 1989 it was found to exhibit behavior typical of a comet. Today it is classified as both a minor planet and a comet, and is accordingly also known by the cometary designation 95P/Chiron. Chiron is named after the centaur Chiron in Greek mythology."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2060_Chiron

some people are crazy enough to entertain hypothetical planets, so i think there is room for little ole me to consider planetoids that aren't asteroids... there is a rhyme here somewhere, but dang if i can find it right now!!

one difference between chiron and ceres for example, might have to do with the fact one orbits between saturn and uranus and the other(s) orbit between jupiter and mars... i liked the idea that those asteroids were once a planet that broke apart because of jupiters gravitational pull..

i think one of the beauties of traditional astrology is only working with planets out to saturn.. i have to admit the simplicity is very attractive to me.. i also tend to think only those who are really brilliant genius types know how to work with simplicity to great effect.. other lesser astrologers get caught up in all sorts of exotic birds and other such flying objects, lol!!

but i am not brilliant, so i let a few extra flying objects enter my sphere and consider the relevance and possibilities! i am enjoying liz greenes book.. this might be perhaps because of the big effect her book 'saturn, a new look at an old devil' had on me in my formative years.. i still think that was a fantastic book with many great insights.. even if she is running up a tree here with her ruminations on chiron, it is fun to consider... i have noticed some clear coincidences with chiron and my chart - enough to not immediately dismiss them or rule out the possibility of the use of this in attaining a greater understanding of astrology.. i might be better off just meditating 18 hours a day, but i still incapable of more then about 10 minutes, lol.. the rest of the time i ruminate on odd things like comets, or planetoids or whatever the elite astronomers decide to call chiron today... it might change and get promoted or demoted if i live long enough!!

i mean, maybe there is only enough room for one really bad and depressing planet in the solar system - saturn, and any other competition will be eaten by this same dark fellow! it can't be a women, but astrologers are still undecided whether saturn is male or female, lol... but if you are a fun loving person - maybe you'd like to incorporate another saturn type figure into your prognosis.. it helps if you lean on the dark side and melancholic readings are your specialty! that might be liz greenes specialty and all those other jungian astrologers too, lol...

here is a little music to sooth you both, if you made it this far!
https://youtu.be/Uhq8FModc8Q?t=2785

james_m wrote: i think one of the beauties of traditional astrology is only working with planets out to saturn..

I agree, James. I'll always refer to the classical 7 as the basis of any inquiry.

I'd add to this that I think it's important to get a clear notion of how the planets were understood historically. Somewhere along the way, some of the meanings went a bit awry. I've seen people giving what I'd consider strange or even faulty meanings to planets - and I don't say that to put anyone down. We're all just human and doing the best that we can with the information we have on hand. - Heck, speaking of "on hand," even the great Rob Hand once said he was uneasy with Mercury's traditional rulership of Virgo (Horoscope Symbols p. 223) and (funnily enough, in light of this current thread) goes on to explain that he feels there are asteroids that align with Virgo more closely. I can't be certain, as I've never spoken with him personally, but I'm pretty sure that his views differ these days from what he wrote on the subject back in 1981.

james_m wrote: . i might be better off just meditating 18 hours a day, but i still incapable of more then about 10 minutes, lol..

lol. Nah, man. Meditation is great and all, but:

道はその日その日の生活の中に
(the path is in day-to-day life)

james_m wrote: here is a little music to sooth you both, if you made it this far!
https://youtu.be/Uhq8FModc8Q?t=2785

Thanks, listened to this as I ate my lunch. Smooth bliss.... now back to work!

james_m wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:13 pm some people are crazy enough to entertain hypothetical planets, so i think there is room for little ole me to consider planetoids that aren't asteroids...

Hey James: Fair enough.
Thanks for the music link.
Be Well.

jason and aj

it would be interesting to get an update from robert hand on that passage.. i recall it too and still have the book you reference... i think the planets can mean many different things to astrologers.. also there is the fact different approaches emphasize different types of symbolism.. i believe liz greene is mostly thought of as a psychological type astrologer, into carl jung as much as she is into astrology.. apparently carl jung was into astrology too and she also wrote a book on that.. psychology and the interest in psychology is relatively new - freud an jung being two of the well known proponents of this area of study... then there is the interest in mythology and the question of just how much of these mythological stories do connect to the names of the planets, or whatever... then there is the issue of the discovery of newer planets - uranus, neptune and pluto or whatever too... obviously it is a lot easier to discount or ignore some of this, but then perhaps it hinges on just what type of astrology you are doing...

i have noticed a lot of 'traditional' astrology has come on-stream since the 1990s with the advent of access to ancient manuscripts.. project hindsight, or lillys christian astrology was not readily available to astrologers prior to the 90's... while i believe the past has a lot of value, this resurgence has put a lot of focus on horary astrology.. perhaps this has to do with william lilly being a horary astrologer primarily. now maybe it is also because deb houldings is considered an eminent horary astrologer which might explain why the horary forum on skyscript has about twice as many posts as any of the other forums, or perhaps it is because traditional astrology puts a much greater emphasis on horary astrology then it does psychological astrology...i don't believe traditional astrology of the past put any emphasis on psychology, which certainly simplified things! you can't take a system, or a leader of this system of astrology from 400 years ago and impose outer planets on them either!!

i guess what i am ultimately trying to say is, things change... just how people or astrologers roll with these changes is interesting to watch! perhaps another music analogy would work here.. there are many different styles of music and especially if you go to different parts of the world, you see people playing with different sounds and instruments and creating what is defined as music, that might sound dissonant or inharmonious to a westerners ear... why is that? are those sounds wrong, or are they just different sounds that we have little to no familiarity with? i think the same thing happens in astrology and depending on how conservative or liberal a person is, they might respond to it differently, or just say it is wrong, lol...

liz greenes book on chiron, and brian clarks book which i mentioned previously, are more focused on psychology as i see it.. this is not the area of strength or focus of what i have come to think of as 'traditional' astrology... that is okay too.. anything is going to be challenging to a hidebound ideology, no matter who buys into it... i think its good to shake things up and consider other possibilities, astrologically and otherwise..

thanks for both of your commentary here..

james_m wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:13 pm some people are crazy enough to entertain hypothetical planets, ...............................

Which hypothetical planets do you mean ?

any... i was playing with words and being silly..

there is always a problem with taking one sentence, isolating it and removing it from the context... without the context, it is meaningless to try to convey the meaning..

james_m wrote: perhaps another music analogy would work here.. there are many different styles of music and especially if you go to different parts of the world, you see people playing with different sounds and instruments and creating what is defined as music, that might sound dissonant or inharmonious to a westerners ear... why is that? are those sounds wrong, or are they just different sounds that we have little to no familiarity with? i

and now reread and apply that to your jabs at the Uranian stuff, James lol

well i have said this all along jason, if you've been paying attention!!

i think it might have to do with the contradictory part of my nature that confuses some... for those who only see in black and white and want everything in a yes or no, right or wrong manner, it must be confusing, i will admit! and i like to poke fun at others and myself too.. might not work with really sensitive types that are unable to get beyond the words.. i will give you that!

in fact, the quote you isolate - i say that for this very reason!! for all those folks who continue to be unable to understand what i am saying and instead look only for trouble, lol...