From Anthony Louis blog:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2024/03 ... he-occult/

"

Valens’ list of significations contains many interesting associations which modern astrologers tend to ignore. Among these is the 9th Place signifying mystic and occult matters, which Dariot and Willaim Lilly included in their work. Another is the 12th Place as representative of foreign lands and travel to very distant places, which Guido Bonatti included in his texts and is commonly used by Indian astrologers but often ignored by Western astrologers.

I the Ascendant, life, steering-oar, body, breath.
II Life, the Gate of Hades, shadowy, giving and receiving, association.
III Brothers, travel abroad, kingship, authority, friends, relatives, rents/revenue, slaves.
IV Rank, children, one’s own wife and older individuals, activity, city, home, possessions, lodgings,
alterations, change of place, dangers, death, confinement, religious matters.
V The Place of Children, friendship, association, slaves, freedmen, the completion of some good deed or benefaction.
VI Slaves, injuries, hostility, disease, sickness.
VII The Descendant, marriage, success, an affair with a woman, friendship, travel.
VIII Death, benefits from the deceased, the Inactive Place, law, sickness.
IX Friendship, travel, benefits from foreigners, God, king, magnates, astrology, oracles, appearances of the gods, mystic and occult matters, associations.
X Occupation, rank, success, children, women, change, innovation in business.
XI Friends, hopes, gifts, children, slaves, freedmen.
XII Foreign lands, hostility, slaves, injuries, dangers, tribunals, disease, death, sickness.”

Bonatti....Valens...quite heavy references saying this.....I was actually quite surprised when I read Tony's blog that there is
references to this in traditional astrology.

I have used the 12th house for foreign lands in my use of Vedic astrology always. And it works very well and consistently imo.
So why have it fell off the radar in western astrology, if it's there in the old writings of prominent astrologers like Bonatti¨ and Valens ?

good question stefan!

maybe the astro sages of skyscript can answer this…. i can see them lining up now, when they take a break from fb, lol..

Yes I am curious as well....lol.

Does it only work in Sidereal lol.

This is a good example the King of sweden and the Queen ( German born) both have their 7th ruler in the 12th house,
which can mean foreign spouse. But this is true in the Sidereal charts for them.at least.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ca ... _of_Sweden (7th ruler in 12th both sidereal and tropical).

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Si ... _of_Sweden
7th ruler in 12th in sidereal.....12th ruler in 7th in tropical

stefan

interesting zodiacal juxapositioning here, thanks

when i try to evoke the wise gurus of papyrus to solicit a pearl of wisdom before the hoards, they seem to adopt the biblical ideology of not casting pearls before swine, lol.. maybe there’s a difference between reading papyrus and doing modern astrology? you appear to be doing the later..

Stefan wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2024 9:56 am So why have it fell off the radar in western astrology, if it's there in the old writings of prominent astrologers like Bonatti¨ and Valens ?

I'm not sure that is a type of question that can be satisfactorily answered. If an idea is mentioned in various sources, its line of transmission can often be traced; but determining why something isn't mentioned is a very different proposition. Perhaps the best we can do is to say that the signification wasn't there in all the early sources, and that the ones that included it were, for whatever reasons, not the ones most widely diffused.

Thanks Martin,
This is all very interesting I think as Indian astrology I guess have have this interpretation of the 12th house probably from quite early on
in It's scriptures I assume.
While this reference in Valens work , who were active in the 2nd century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens

I am a bit short on the history of astrology. I don't know what to make out of it really. Have never heard of it before in
other sources than Indian.

I thought it might be interesting to explore this in a chart of interest. I googled for some great travelers in the history.

This name poped up: Michael Palin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_th ... hael_Palin

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Palin,_Michael

His chart hold a 12th house in-sec benefic exalted Jupiter in the 12th house.
12th house ruler Moon exalted in 10th house in Taurus.

The start of this adventure was in 1988 when he was in a 10th house profection holding sun and Moon.
Transiting Jupiter transited Taurus that year.
It was a start of a new phase in his career involving traveling.

Stefan wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2024 9:56 am From Anthony Louis blog:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2024/03 ... he-occult/

"

Valens’ list of significations contains many interesting associations which modern astrologers tend to ignore. Among these is the 9th Place signifying mystic and occult matters, which Dariot and Willaim Lilly included in their work. Another is the 12th Place as representative of foreign lands and travel to very distant places, which Guido Bonatti included in his texts and is commonly used by Indian astrologers but often ignored by Western astrologers.

I the Ascendant, life, steering-oar, body, breath.
II Life, the Gate of Hades, shadowy, giving and receiving, association.
III Brothers, travel abroad, kingship, authority, friends, relatives, rents/revenue, slaves.
IV Rank, children, one’s own wife and older individuals, activity, city, home, possessions, lodgings,
alterations, change of place, dangers, death, confinement, religious matters.
V The Place of Children, friendship, association, slaves, freedmen, the completion of some good deed or benefaction.
VI Slaves, injuries, hostility, disease, sickness.
VII The Descendant, marriage, success, an affair with a woman, friendship, travel.
VIII Death, benefits from the deceased, the Inactive Place, law, sickness.
IX Friendship, travel, benefits from foreigners, God, king, magnates, astrology, oracles, appearances of the gods, mystic and occult matters, associations.
X Occupation, rank, success, children, women, change, innovation in business.
XI Friends, hopes, gifts, children, slaves, freedmen.
XII Foreign lands, hostility, slaves, injuries, dangers, tribunals, disease, death, sickness.”

Bonatti....Valens...quite heavy references saying this.....I was actually quite surprised when I read Tony's blog that there is
references to this in traditional astrology.

I have used the 12th house for foreign lands in my use of Vedic astrology always. And it works very well and consistently imo.
So why have it fell off the radar in western astrology, if it's there in the old writings of prominent astrologers like Bonatti¨ and Valens ?

Simple. The 12th os the 9th ffom the 4th. Living abroad. And the 6th is the 10th. Working abroad. I often see planets in 12th squaring 9th house planets in exiles, like Saramago and Gabeira. They left for political or religious reasons