Hi everyone,

I’m trying to delve deeper into the secondary traits of the signs (or classifications of zodiac signs).
I think that most people are familiar with the following categories:
Fertile, barren, bestial, feral, humane, double bodied and mute signs.
But there are other zodiac signs traits which are also mentioned in the tradition, and are less often discussed.
I think there were more classifications in the Hellenistic tradition, and some of them fell off by medieval/renaissance times.
This post is my thoughts on the subject, trying to provoke you into an active discussion on these more or less esoteric categories/classifications

***

I’m talking about the following categories:
The list below uses Demetra George’s introduction to Hellenistic astrology book, Volume 1, chapter 10, pages 145-6.

-- Winged signs - Gemini, Virgo, Aquarius, Sagittarius.
I wonder, why not Libra, which is also an air sign. Virgo as the depiction of the virgo is often with wings, or as a double bodied sign it’s a maiden and a bird.
Also, am struggling in translating this category into ‘real world traits’ or horary applications.

-- Licentious signs - Aries, Taurus, Capricorn, Pisces, and Libra in part.
Aries, Taurus and Capricorn as they are Bestial probably, but why Pisces and part of Libra? Maybe because of the Venus association.
I suppose these signs are desirous of sex / high libido.

-- Lecherous or Lewd: Aries, Taurus, Leo, Capricorn in part [probably the first part, the goat], Pisces, and Libra (because the constellation of the Goat rises with it [Demetra’s words])
This list includes only Leo as an addition, in addition to the Licentious signs list.

-- Amphibious signs – Cancer and Capricorn
I think it’s clear why with Cancer and the goat being a sea-goat.
But how would we translate this category, or apply it, in practical astrology form? In our astrology practice, that is.

-- Broken, imperfect or mutilated (distortions of body and limbs): Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Pisces, Capricorn, Cancer.
I think Lilly also used these as well. It has the bestial signs minus Aries and the Water signs.
Do you ever use that category? How did Lilly used it? I suppose he used it to diagnose physical blemishes.

-- Rough skinned, leprous, mangy or scurvy: Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Scorpio, Capricorn, Pisces
Same signs as above, only this time with Aries included.
Apparently, the air signs were considered ‘whole’ or ‘perfect’, in comparison.

-- Servile (sitting fatigued, slouched, and weariness of mind): Taurus, Libra, Capricorn, Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces.
Seems to be the water signs (cold blooded), plus Capricorn which is half fish, Taurus which is slow moving unless annoyed and Libra which is an inanimate object.
This category is interesting as it implies servitude, or laziness, or going with the flow, or all of these things.
Never saw a single astrologer using this classification.

-- Single form (keeping to an unshared estate): Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Leo, Libra, Scorpio, Aquarius.
This is in contrast to double bodied signs, but how should we approach it in interpretation? Maybe as just symbolizing one thing, in contrast to symbolizing two things.

-- Moderately fruitful: Taurus, Capricorn
-- Moderately Barren: Sagittarius, Aquarius
-- Unprolific (having few children): Aries, Taurus, Libra, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius
We know that the fruitful signs / fertile, are the water signs.
We also know that the barren signs are the Mercury ruled signs and Leo.
But we have these signs, in between.
The moderately fertile signs are Taurus which is Venus ruled (why not Libra, then), and Capricorn which is half aquatic (so fertility - water). My thoughts.
The moderately barren signs are Aquarius as it’s ruled by barren Saturn (cold & dry), and Sagittarius which is mildly surprising. Sag is ruled by Jupiter which is hot and wet, but maybe this is the case as Sag is a half breed (half man and half horse). What do you think?
The unprolific category is also a puzzle to me. It contains the bestial signs, the Saturn ruled signs, and Libra for some reason (maybe because it’s an inanimate object).

There are some additional categories, but this list is long enough and it contains most of the classifications already.

***

Some additional thoughts:
Would you consider Capricorn as a double bodied sign? This category seems to be all about the mutable signs, but Capricorn is half goat and half fish.
Would you consider the First part of Sagittarius to be humane/rational? If yes, then the contrast would be great between the first humane half and the second feral half.

Demetra George seems to be basing the list on different Hellenistic authors such as Valens, Rhetorius and Antiochus of Athens.

Cheers,
Dima.

Hello Dima,

You seemed to be asking all the questions that I asked myself some time ago and I prepared some notes for my students then that I shall share here...hopefully it is of use and interest to others...

There was a time that I wanted to find the rationale of the meanings associated with the BIG THREE namely signs, planets and houses and I did just that; this is neither complete nor absolute but it does satisfy my obsession over symmetry and analogy. I realized early on that I needed to separate the independent and dependent meanings of these three. Independent means the meaning of one of the three is not derived from the other two. So, I came up the following divisions:
1). The meanings of the planets free from their associations with the signs and houses.
Example: Luminaries representing life as they are the lights, Sun = giver of light (soul), Moon = receiver of light (body) and both are never retrograde (life never gets younger no matter how much we cling to dear life!)

2). The meanings of the signs free from their associations with the planets and houses.
Example: Cancer as being the "tortious" sign. The cardinal signs are all moveable signs delineated as "change" and solstitial signs (Capricorn and Cancer) are the "turning" signs because they change direction (Capricorn: from decreasing to increasing declination while having negative declination and Cancer: from increasing to decreasing declination while having positive declination). Having moon in cancer signifying travel in an electional or horary chart, gives instability to travel as Cancer is a "turning" sign but turning from increasing to decreasing - resulting in many digressions and diversions. Of course, the outcome is determined by the conditions of the significator as being in a turning sign just describe the journey and not its success or failure.

3). The meanings of the houses free from their associations with the planets and signs.
Example: 4th house = roots and 10th house = aspiration, fulfillment of destiny - for obvious reasons!

4). The associated meanings of the planets & signs free from the houses.
A lot of significations of Mars and Saturn are opposite the significations of the luminaries because the signs ruled by them are also opposite (Leo, the domicile of Sun is opposite Aquarius, the domicile of Saturn AND Cancer, the domicile of Moon is opposite Capricorn, the domicile of Saturn as well as exalted of Mars AND Aries, the exalted of Sun is opposite Libra, the exalted of Saturn AND Taurus, the exalted of Moon is opposite Scorpio, the domicile of Mars.

5). The derived meanings of the houses from the Chaldean order & Joy of the planets and domicile & exalted rulers of the thema mundi.
This we sort of discussed before!

Now let's discuss the meanings of the signs that are related to your query (using the principles of numbers 2 and 4 above):

I find it necessary (at least for me, one who is obsessed with symmetry in analogy) to find the rationale for the major secondary traits of the signs (as you called them)...
The listings are taken mostly from Hellenistic-Medieval though some disagree on the inclusion of certain signs in certain categories.

Dominant vs SubDominant vs SubOrdinate signs:
Dominant (Ari, Leo, Sag): signs ruled by trigon lords that are all superiors (Sun, Jupiter and Saturn) - happens to be the masculine-fire signs
SubDominant (Gem, Lib, Aqu): signs ruled by trigon lords, only two are superiors (Jupiter and Saturn) - happens to be the masculine-air signs
SubOrdinate (Tau, Vir, Cap, Can, Sco, Pis): signs ruled by trigon lords, only one is a superior (Mars) - happens to be the earth and water signs (feminine signs).
Leo is most dominant (royal) as it is also the domicile of a masculine-diurnal luminary.

Bicorporeal and winged signs:
Bicorporeal (Gem, Pis): Signs that are mutable AND flowing elements (Air or Water).
Winged: Signs that are mutable AND flowing elements (Air or Water) plus Virgo. Virgo is included as it is domicile + exaltation of the flighty Mercury (the fastest non-luminary).
Note that mutable signs are either flowing (Air and water) = bicorporeal. Mutable signs that are not flowing: one above (Fire) with also animalistic trait (Sag having two in one, human part and the bestial part) and the other down to earth but wants to be in the sky (Vir - the winged).

Human and non human signs:
Human or rational signs (Gem, Vir, Lib, Aqu): air signs and Vir (being domicile + exaltation of Mercury). Some include 1st half of Sag.
Non-Human signs are two namely aquatic and terrestrial:
Non-Human aquatic (Can, Sco, Pis): water signs
Non-Human terrestrial: all other signs that are neither human not aquatic. Cap and Can are also amphibious (solstitial, "turning" signs)
The non-human terrestrial signs (aka bestial) that are ruled by only one planet (they don't have exalted ruler) are also the Feral signs (Leo, Sag). The terrestrial signs that are ruled by two planets (domicile and exalted rulers) are domesticated signs (Ari, Tau, Cap). It is as if having exalted ruler makes them pliant to human "rulership".

Violent signs: signs ruled by malefic (as either domicile or exalted ruler)
Four-footed signs: fire signs. Alchabitius omits Aries which makes his list of four footed signs = Feral signs (see above)

Fined voice signs: Human signs (some include 1st half Sag)
Mute signs: Non-human aquatic signs
Half-Voiced signs: Non-human terrestrial (bestial) signs. Some include 2nd half of Sag.

Alchabitius Much Copulating signs: bestial signs apart from Sag because ruled by Jupiter. Others list signs ruled by Mars or Venus by domicile or exaltation namely Aries, Scorpio, Capricorn, Taurus, Libra, Pisces. Leo is also included because it is a feral sign (the other feral sign is not included as it is ruled by Jupiter).

Proposals for fruitful, barren, etc:
Fruitful signs: aquatic or water signs
Rather fruitful signs: non-aquatic signs ruled by Jupiter or Venus (I am discarding Aqu)
Rather barren: non-aquatic signs ruled by Saturn or Mars (I am including Aqu)
Barren: the remainder

Now, to some selected comments from you... (others may have been, sort of answered above):

-- Winged signs - Gemini, Virgo, Aquarius, Sagittarius.

This list is different than the one I have... and I don't think Aqu & Sag should be winged?

I wonder, why not Libra, which is also an air sign.

My logic would be the one described above...

Virgo as the depiction of the virgo is often with wings, or as a double bodied sign it’s a maiden and a bird.

This is one I DO NOT use in my rationale. I do not use the images (constellation) to derive meanings for the signs. I strongly feel (well, just a feeling) that they should be separated. Meanings derived from the signs are for positions in the signs and meanings derived from the constellations are for positions in the constellations. The only time that they can be used together is when they are together (ayanamsa close to zero).

Also, am struggling in translating this category into ‘real world traits’ or horary applications.

Well, usually we let the chart speaks...Querent asks whether should he travel by plane or train... with significator in a winged sign ...well (hehehe)

-- Lecherous or Lewd: Aries, Taurus, Leo, Capricorn in part [probably the first part, the goat], Pisces, and Libra (because the constellation of the Goat rises with it [Demetra’s words])

This is also another thing that I DO NOT use in my rationale. I tried to rationale for the UNIVERSAL meanings of the signs and not the PARTICULAR meanings. Co-incidental rising phenomena are latitude dependent..., hence, are reserved for particular charts and should not be made universal.

Would you consider Capricorn as a double bodied sign? This category seems to be all about the mutable signs, but Capricorn is half goat and half fish.

No, not double bodied. Rather, amphibious because it is bestial turning sign.

Would you consider the First part of Sagittarius to be humane/rational? If yes, then the contrast would be great between the first humane half and the second feral half.

I don't know... the medieval astrologers seem to think so... though I agree with your "contrast". I myself would prefer a rather different approach. I would look into the thirds of the sign (not halves); as each third is ruled by a different Chaldean decan/face ruler and describe the distinctiveness of a sign via the thirds of decan/faces. Example: In many ancient reference to Scorpio, there were three images related to it namely scorpion, eagle and serpent. These "animals" are associated with the three decans/faces... stinging scorpion is the first decan/face (Mars), the all-seeing eagle is the second decan/face (all-seeing Sun) and the slithering serpent is the third decan/face (the seductive Venus). For Sagittarius, the first decan (Mercury) is the "human" part (the part that wants to go beyond and fly above), the third decan (Saturn) is the heavy part that wants to be part of earth and the second decan (Moon) seems to be both (well, ???).

This is a long one... feel free to disagree and if you do disagree... let me tell you I disagree!!! HAHAHA

Dima, I spent some time last summer trying to figure out some of these categorizations as well; I appreciate you starting this discussion.

Astrojin, your breaking things down into further divisions here is really helpful. Thanks! One of the categories I was specifically curious about when I was looking into this are the so-called 'winged' signs. My list, like yours, has Gemini, Virgo, and Pisces in this category (no Aquarius or Sagittarius). But, like Dima, I'd considered this category alongside the images associated with the sign, but I think you make a good point here:

Dima Gur wrote: Virgo as the depiction of the virgo is often with wings, or as a double bodied sign it’s a maiden and a bird.

astrojin wrote: This is one I DO NOT use in my rationale. I do not use the images (constellation) to derive meanings for the signs. I strongly feel (well, just a feeling) that they should be separated. Meanings derived from the signs are for positions in the signs and meanings derived from the constellations are for positions in the constellations. The only time that they can be used together is when they are together (ayanamsa close to zero).

(and the rest of your breakdown clarifies this point further)

What I'm still not entirely convinced about, though, is the practical application:

Dima Gur wrote: Also, am struggling in translating this category into ‘real world traits’ or horary applications.

astrojin wrote: Well, usually we let the chart speaks...Querent asks whether should he travel by plane or train... with significator in a winged sign ...well (hehehe)

I see how this works in modern terms, but why was it used in ancient astrology, prior to the invention of aircraft? Perhaps this gives credence to ancient alien theory? Hahaha. I'm joking here, but, really - what's the significance? The only other explanation I've been able to come up with so far is that maybe it refers to "flight" in terms of what we might think of as "fight or flight" responses today? Maybe a retreat indication for battles?

It's probably a stretch, but - Gemini and Virgo both being "humane" and ruled by Mercury (whereas other "humane" signs give dignity to a malefic (Libra, Aquarius) gives them an alternative to engaging in battle - a logical solution or alternate route? ((Sagittarius being the only double-bodied sign not include among the "winged" is interesting, but it's only half-humane and also a fire sign so "dominating" - it makes no sense for it to "back down" or "take flight"?

Pisces is just weird to see included here, but perhaps it's due to being both feminine and home to the benefics (Venus- concessions; Jupiter- temperance)?

I don't know. I'll continue to puzzle over this one, probably.

Looking at these various classifications historically, I think it's fairly clear that many of them do derive from the concrete imagery associated with the signs (and ultimately based on the appearance of the constellations). Both ancient and early medieval texts (and some not so early) keep mixing 'sidereal' and 'tropical' rationales, because the phenomenon of precession was not universally known or accepted. The naturalistic ('scientific') interpretations given by Ptolemy and, later, by those influenced primarily by him, were in many cases reinterpretations, offering new (and not always universally valid) justifications for categories originally based on a different kind of thinking.

I forgot to say that Pisces is a case in point: it was originally either two birds or a fish and a bird; I forget which and am travelling at the moment, with limited ability to check.

Martin Gansten wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:55 am I forgot to say that Pisces is a case in point: it was originally either two birds or a fish and a bird; I forget which and am travelling at the moment, with limited ability to check.

Ah! Thanks Martin

My 2 pennies...

Before the language as Martin pointed out, the various classifications were derived from imagery based on the appearance of the constellations and their observation. The signs came later. A Babylonian observing the sky at night would do a report in the morning by drawing a cuneiform sign and anyone looking at it knew the whole story. The position right or left, up or down had a meaning and so forth.
For example, in the cathedral of Otranto in Italy, you can observe 73 occurences of the sign of Aquarius. In 74% of them, the personage pours the amphora some represented with water, others not. 4% carries the amphora. And others with the amphora only.
It all comes down to 'what if... then' by observation.
Of all these qualities, winged, licentious,amphibious & the rest have to be judged with the same logic 'what if... then'. Say for example, you cast a chart for a crime case and you see that your witness (Moon 3rd House in Pisces) is afflicted by the malefics. He is muted, crooked and imperfect (Pisces). Maybe he learned how to swim but will he tell the truth? And on top of that, he is changeable (Moon). He may come up with several versions of the same crime.

Ouranos wrote:He is muted, crooked and imperfect (Pisces)

Poor Pisces. Maybe the modern stuff about it being a martyr isn't so far off. ;)

Jason,
Wait till Al-Jacuzzi unravels the Nuclear Eclipse of April 1004 when Capricorn was called Elvis, the most twisted, serpentine and bending sign of the zodiac!

Jason:
In D. George's book she has Aquarius noted in one section and Pisces noted in another section for "winged signs".
Not sure which one is a mistake or whether we should consider both.
Pisces could be a flying fish, these things exist in nature.
About Sagittarius, George notes it in brackets. Not sure what she refers to. Maybe that some sources note it as winged, and others don't.
If I remember correctly I saw some zodiac art (also historical) which depicts the Centaur as winged. Plus we have the arrow which surely can fly, launched from the bow.
I've often noticed that Gemini's are fond of getting a flight license (not sure about the other winged signs).

Martin:
How can you tell from the classifications that the zodiac debate is involved (tropical vs sidereal)?
Deb Houlding gives Libra and Aries the trait of Equinoctial (aspiring to balance) and cancer and Capricorn solastial (solstice like - prone to changes and turning).
This is clearly tropical in nature, but the others?
* Deb probably took it from some other source, not sure which.
--
Pisces = two birds or a fish and a bird?! Wow!
First time I'm hearing about such a thing!
A source would be much appreciated if you'll find the time later, Marin.

Ouranos:
Great example with the witness, I do believe such classifications can be priceless in something like horary.
Ouranos: Are witnesses in crime/court cases usually given the 3d house?

Astrojin:
No time now, will go through your reply later.
Such a treasure. I should've used my younger days to travel to Scotland and learn astrology there

Thanks everyone

Are witnesses in crime/court cases usually given the 3d house?

Yes. Understanding 3rd House (Cadent) as people in the neighborhood, the vicinity or periphery of the action (Angular).
Can't remember where I read that if you plan a robbery or a crime, try to have the 3rd House by sign or rulership in Water signs as most likely the witnesses will not speak (muted).
Jury duty is a 9th House matter, again Cadent, external observer.

Dima Gur wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 4:19 pm Martin:
How can you tell from the classifications that the zodiac debate is involved (tropical vs sidereal)?

No, that's not what I said; in fact, almost the reverse. There can only be a debate if there is a conception of two different ways of defining the zodiac, and for a long time there wasn't, because precession wasn't understood/accepted. That's why you'll find Valens, for instance, listing both the stars present in each sign and the positions of the equinoxes, seasonal weather conditions, etc., associated with them. Similarly with some Arabic-language authors, if memory serves, though again, I don't have access to sources at the moment.

Personally I think it's clear that the sidereal element was the main factor (the signs being named for the constellations is a pretty broad hint). I also don't believe that the Greek term tropikos, applied to zodiacal signs, originally had anything to do with the changing seasons.

Pisces = two birds or a fish and a bird?! Wow!
First time I'm hearing about such a thing!
A source would be much appreciated if you'll find the time later, Marin.

Wikipedia will have to do for now (I only half-remembered this from a talk heard many years ago):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_(c ... ite_ref-26