Today my brother-in-law died. Yesterday I errected a horary.

The brother-in-law is the husband of the sister of my wife, that means the ruler of the 3rd house (7th of the 3rd of the 7th), Mars. He just has left Pisces and entered his home in Aries. Furthermore Mars is in his own face and is still angular. So he is dignified very much. Mars is on the cusp of 8th: My brother-in-law thinks of death (J. Frawley). He separates from Scheat and is already in another sign. Jupiter disposed Mars before when about a week ago leukemia was diagnosed. Jupiter is natural significator of the quality of blood (according to Oscar Hofman). So I took Jupiter as significator of the disease. The Sun, giver of life, separates from Al-Birunis Lot of Death (+1°39'). I thought, it was very dangerous but is getting better now (Mars in Aries) and despite being in the term of Jupiter, soon Mars will enter Venus’ term and it will be better to a greater extend.

I concluded he will survive the next weeks. Jupiter is in a fixed sign (Taurus), so I delineated that the illness will take a long time (again according to John Frawley).

Here the horary asking ”Will XXX survive this crisis?”: Yesterday after (or during?) chemotherapy his kidneys stoped working (maybe shown by South Node in Libra and Venus under Sun’s beams and in a separating square to Pluto). He had to be operated on. He died about 11 hours after surgery today.

I have to confess my trust in astrology or at least in my astrological skills is shaked very much. Even now I know the outcome I cannot see his death in this horary. Do you? Normally I do not use transsaturnian planets but you see Pluto is applying to a sextile to Mars. This is enough to show death??

One more thing:
I noticed that Saturn was in the 7th warning to read the chart. But he is located on Archenar which I red as protection. I decided the chart is valid because the ruler of the hour, Mercury, is the ruler of the ACS too.

Hello Georgius,
Assigning the proper house to the brother-in-law is important.
You read him in the 3rd House but to do so, the question would have to be asked by your sister-in-law or framed like 'Will the husband of my sister-in-law survive?'
And you seem to have asked the question like a 7th House 'Will XXX survive this crisis?' Which is fine also.
Can you give me a context how the question came up and what you were thinking? Who asked?
The answer would need to address the 6th (disease) and the 8th House (surgery, death) of the querent.

Thank you,
Ouranos

I myself asked about my brother-in-law’s survival. I thought that leukemia is a heavy diagnosis and wanted to know if XXX will survive the next 4 to 6 weeks. I knew about the kidney problem when I asked. I did not consider this to be a 7th house matter because he was not just another guy.

The sister of your wife is the 9th. His husband is the 7th from the 9th = 3rd (Scorpio)
OK that seems we can assign him this house.
His ruler MA at 0 Aries (critical degree) and ruling his 6th conjunct NE at the Aries Point suggests general infection and dissolution.
ME rules his 8th and the MO just separated from the SU (vitality) and applies by sextile to ME L8.
FOR in the 8th in the Nodal degree and the midpoint MA/UR of surgery.

But to be honest, I am puzzled by this chart. Not a scenario I would say would end up by his death.
It is always a very sensitive matter.

Praying you feel comforted and find peace and healing.
Ouranos

Hi Georgius, Ouranos,

I'm sorry to hear about this, Georgius. I hope your family is coming through it ok.

I want to mention what I noticed about the chart. I'm not sure if either of you would consider this clear enough to describe what happened, but here goes:

The Moon separates from the Sun which is a general symbol of vitality, and here, the exalted ruler of the turned 6th (the illness); In a sense, the vitality (or lack thereof - Taurus Sun is peregrine) exalts the illness. We can already say that the illness is very strong as it's symbolized by Mars in dignity.

The Moon applies to the north node (increase) in turned 6 (illness). Then the Moon moves next to Mercury (again, in turned 6), ruler of turned 8. Planets in Aries, a moveable fire sign ruled by Mars, bring sudden flare ups, sudden emergencies, sudden new directions, etc. The Moon applying to Mercury implies (at least) a crisis as Mercury is the ruler of turned 8.

There's also the fact that both the Moon and Mercury are in orb of and apply to the turned 10th (treatment) cusp. (Which just so happens to be 12 (unforseen) in the radical chart.)

Saturn on 7 in the radical chart is one of the considerations of judgement, sure. But it is also the most angular planet in the radical chart, and a strong symbol in a chart where the question is about death: the planet of graves, setting, or being lowered below the horizon.

It's outside the normal rules of horary, I know, but if you can get past that, there is an intermingling of the significators here. I don't know that I would have read the chart this way if I weren't looking at it in hindsight. But figured I'd share what I saw.

I tend not to turn the chart.

L1 is in the 8th house, indicating death.

Jason wrote

The Moon applies to the north node (increase) in turned 6 (illness). Then the Moon moves next to Mercury (again, in turned 6), ruler of turned 8.

Thanks for your deep dive Jason.
Also when the MO moves to NN (turning point) and ME in the 6 , FOR in the 8th is in the Nodal degree... and ruled by ME joining the 6th and the 8th together in ill-fate.
But that's a long shot. I would not feel comfortable to predict death from this aspect.

Wei,
Can you explain why you are not turning the chart?
I tend to look at the radical chart sometimes like you do as if the question was rooted in the moment.
But I can't explain why.
Would like to hear your comments.

Ouranos

Ouranos wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 12:25 pm I would not feel comfortable to predict death from this aspect.

I wouldn't either.

Ouranos wrote: Wei,
Can you explain why you are not turning the chart?
I tend to look at the radical chart sometimes like you do as if the question was rooted in the moment.
But I can't explain why.
Would like to hear your comments.

I think there's something important in Wei's position, and your question to her. Though, I'm at a loss for words to exactly explain it. Something about the coming together of various indications from different perspectives - like how from a phenomenological perspective people view the same object from different perspectives and note certain different details, but objectively, materially, it can be argued that they are still looking at the same thing... or something like that...

We get the turned chart due to the radical - so the wife's sisters husband is still ruled by Mars from the radical chart perspective - it is on the radical 8th house cusp.

The 8th becomes the 6th in the turned chart - uniting Death 'overall' with illness 'specific'.

The radical 6th house is ruled by Saturn - most angular planet, SETTING, and dispositor of the Moon - it becomes the 4th house ruler (endings) in the turned chart - again uniting illness "overall" with endings "specific'

etc. etc.

I often find myself unsure whether to turn the chart or not.

My logic is,

If the matter directly concerns the querent and it involves a third party, turning the chart is required.

For example: Can my brother come home? Can I get in touch with my brother? The 1st house represents the querent, and the 3rd house represents the querent's brother.

If the matter does not concern the querent, turning is unnecessary.

For example: Will my brother die? The 1st house represents the brother. Whether the brother can survive has no direct relation to me (the querent), unless the querent's involvement in the brother's death is suspected (which could potentially become a criminal case? Should the astrologer report it to the authorities? I'm attempting a joke here, though it may not be very amusing. A bit of dark humor). ╮(╯∀╰)╭

Thank you Jason and Wei,

I revisited the article by Deb here... and found some quotes on radical vs turned
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1ea.html

And it echoes what you are saying Jason.

approaching the symbolism from another perspective allows you to focus more detail upon how the partner relates to the situation you are examining.

when we combine the indications and accept that they each describe the way that events present themselves to the different people involved in the horary.

The unturned chart is called the 'radical figure', the radix - the root from which all the symbolism emerges. Usually the tone set by the radical chart will influence all our attempts to extend its descriptive value; so if we find a debilitated or afflicted malefic culminating on the Midheaven, that is offering a very strong statement which will be relevant to the judgement regardless of whether the 10th house is highlighted in the turned signification.

It has also been argued, that when a querent asks about someone else's problem, to some extent they associate directly with them and share their focus on the problem.

More so if we have a relationship in the question.

contradictory factors often cause some initial confusion in judgement, which is ironed out when we combine the indications and accept that they each describe the way that events present themselves to the different people involved in the horary.

Georgius: This is very sad news about your brother-in-law. I wish the best for you and your family during this rough time.

My 2 cents on the chart.
Your question was: Will XXX survive this crisis?
XXX is signified by the 7th house, ruled by Jupiter.
Knowing that it is a health crisis, the derivative 6th house for XXX is Leo, ruled by the Sun. The Sun and Jupiter are in the same sign; the Sun is applying very widely to conjunction with Jupiter. The Sun is a functional malefic due to ruling the 6th derivative house, and it's association with Jupiter is negative. The application is very wide, so this is not enough testimony, so we must look to the Moon. The Moon, always being the co-ruler, even though it is separating, is making a partile square to the Sun. (The Moon is still within a degree, being only 44 minutes past exactitude so still partile.)
The partile square between the Moon and the Sun indicates a no answer.

If you use the outers... The derivative 8th lord is Venus, which is in a partile square with Pluto confirms the no answer. Again, separating by only 25 arc minutes is considered partile.

Condolences and Blessings,
AJ