At least some medieval authors (including, if memory serves, Sahl) explicitly allow for applications across sign borders. Some present-day astrologers believe that this refers only to conjunctions, not to aspects. I am not convinced of that, but for my present question it doesn't matter: let us presume a bodily application.

I wonder whether anyone can recall seeing (and, if so, refer me to) an explicit discussion of reception in connection with such applications. For instance, let the Moon be in the last degree of Virgo and Venus in the first or second degree of Libra (whether in a nativity, a revolution, a horary question, etc). Would medieval authors consider this an application with non-reception (ghayr al-qabūl) because the Moon is in Venus' sign of fall in the static chart, or with reception (qabūl) because the Moon will be in Venus' domicile when perfecting the application? I don't recall seeing that matter discussed, but it seems quite relevant and important, so it would be surprising if nobody had touched on it anywhere.

Martin Gansten wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:31 pm At least some medieval authors (including, if memory serves, Sahl) explicitly allow for applications across sign borders. Some present-day astrologers believe that this refers only to conjunctions, not to aspects. I am not convinced of that, but for my present question it doesn't matter: let us presume a bodily application.

I wonder whether anyone can recall seeing (and, if so, refer me to) an explicit discussion of reception in connection with such applications. For instance, let the Moon be in the last degree of Virgo and Venus in the first or second degree of Libra (whether in a nativity, a revolution, a horary question, etc). Would medieval authors consider this an application with non-reception (ghayr al-qabūl) because the Moon is in Venus' sign of fall in the static chart, or with reception (qabūl) because the Moon will be in Venus' domicile when perfecting the application? I don't recall seeing that matter discussed, but it seems quite relevant and important, so it would be surprising if nobody had touched on it anywhere.

My understanding, Martin, is that the quality of an aspect is determined from its point of perfection. It's for this reason we have concepts like refranation, prohibition, evasion, all of which expect the chart to be a snapshot of a dynamic situation that is in motion and will continue in its trajectory of ebb and flow. I have this sneaking suspicion that, in On Reception (Masha'allah), there is some indirect reference to reception over a sign boundary, but I can't be too sure of that and my copy is not nearby. But even if that passage is not there, directly or otherwise, I can't make sense of why evasion as a principle would exist, or refranation, but reception would play by different rules. In the example you give, I would expect the situation to commence with the sense of not being received by who- or whatever Venus signifies, and as it progresses (symbolically shown by movement into the adjoining sign), a change occurs which puts Venus in a position of responsibility or expectation to help manage the affairs the Moon represents.

https://www.emakurent.com/en/2017/02/09 ... astrology/

Ema Kurent in this article says to disregard sign boundaries in a timing question ( When) with the Moon as a timing factor.
With an example, 'When will my husband be released from prison?'
The MO is at 3 Sco 25 and the husband significator VE at 6 Ari 05.
VE is approaching a sextile to JU ruling the 4th showed him to be coming home.
There is a distance of 32 degrees 40' between both before the MO perfects a trine with VE and he was released 32,5 weeks later.
So it seems that the movement between planets is more important here.
Not sure if we could extend it to non-timing question in sign boundaries.

Hello and good morning, I've never been sure whether these character boundaries actually exist or whether they are actually an artificial construct of the human mind, just like causality is. What is a sign other than a more or less random division of cosmic space in which there are occasional clusters and collections of fixed stars? After their withdrawal from Africa, the colonial powers also drew the national borders there more or arbitrarily, as if with a ruler. Even within the zodiac signs there are now planetary assignments for the individual segments. A 2 degree orb of Moon and Venus across two signs is nothing other than a conjunction with 2 degree orbs of Moon and Venus in the same sign. Jakob

Thanks to all (so far) for your thoughts. What I really want to know, though, is

whether anyone can recall seeing (and, if so, refer me to) an explicit discussion of reception in connection with such applications

in any pre- or early modern author. On Reception is not a bad guess, and it's not very long, so perhaps I should start by looking there, unless someone comes up with an actual reference first.

The reference I remembered, I have found, and it is explicit so that should be a help to you. On Reception, chapter IV, a question concerning a sick person. The Sun is in Aquarius in this chart, and won’t perfect its aspect to Jupiter until it enters Pisces.

After this I looked at which planet the Sun would be first joined to when he advanced on to the following sign. The Sun was being joined to Jupiter which is the lord of the house of death. But Jupiter received the Sun according to his domicile [Pisces]. Therefore, the Sun also signified health and prosperity, according to the Command of God, because of Jupiter's receiving which received the Sun.

He then goes on another track, but that passage explicitly captures the point you were searching after.

Here is a good read with several definitions ranging from more ancients up to Lilly by Ryhan Butler
https://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/void-moon

Including this one
"Therefore, if you find the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon void of course, joining themselves to none, proclaim the retardation of and prolongation of the matter and that the matter should be less esteemed according to what you see. And look at that planet to which the Moon is joined to first after its going forth from the sign in which it is in and judge the outcome of the matter according to that planet." -Masha'allah "On Reception"

Thanks, Ouranos. It doesn't address the question of reception, though.

Wade wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 5:39 pm The reference I remembered, I have found, and it is explicit so that should be a help to you.

Indeed it is! Thank you very much, Wade, that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. (For some reason Ouranos's post was marked as First unread post for me, so I missed yours before.)

Figured that might've happened.

Just a quick note here.
Wade
Thank you for featuring Martin by reposting a video from your last newsletter.
Martin
Enjoyed you presentation on Direct and Converse Directions. Didn't know you had some roots in Portugal!

Ouranos wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 3:27 pm Martin
Enjoyed you presentation on Direct and Converse Directions. Didn't know you had some roots in Portugal!

Nor did I. Not sure what Wade shared in that respect, or where... Did I miss something?