Zohra writes:

It seems that horary astrology provide querents the tool to look deep inside the mirror hence being inconsidered in our requests ....but I did not see yet an ethical rules who state what to ask and not. I only read on how to formulate the questions.. I think it is more question of morality and sense of dignity that we need to focus upon.

Does anyone know if Lilly's mention those rules, when reading his examples

I?m sure it would only be a matter of time before someone pointed to one of Lilly?s charts as an example that he too could ask ?iffy? questions, but his letter to the student makes it very clear that he saw an ethical approach to horary as a fundamental necessity. Two key phrases that are often repeated:

As thou daily conversest with the heavens, so instruct and form thy minde according to the image of Divinity

The more holy thou art, and more neer to God, the purer judgement thou shalt give

Also bear in mind that in the past, astrologers had a natural assumption that studying astrology brought them closer to the divine principles of the Creator, for which they expected to increase ?attunement? by developing their own spirituality. Lilly was certainly aware of the views of Bonatus and shows his support of his second consideration in his editorial comment:

The Second Consideration is (what we hinted at before) the method or manner everyone ought to observe that enquires of an Astrologer; which is, that when he intends to take an artist's judgment of things past, present, or to come, he should, first, with a devout spirit, pray unto the Lord, from whom proceeds the success of every lawful enterprise, that he would grant him the knowledge of those things of the truth of which he would be resolved; and then let him apply himself to the astrologer with a serious intent of being satisfied in some certain and particular doubt, and this not on trifling occasions, or light sudden emotions, much less on matters base or unlawful, as many ignorant people used to do; but in matters of honest importance, and such as have possessed and disturbed his mind for the space of a day and night or longer; unless in sudden accidents which admit not of delay.

Note by Lilly. - Those that take this sober course, shall find the truth in what they enquire after; but whosoever do otherwise, deceive both themselves and the artist

I agree that what is considered ?ethical? or even what is considered ?important? or ?sincere? is too relative for any of us attempt to draw up firm guidelines. It is for the astrologer to probe and remain conscious of what query is really driving the need for the horary and why. Of course, this all gets complicated when the querent is also the astrologer, because the astrologer is usually there to act as an emotionally-independent translator that can see everything in a clearer context and within a bigger picture than the querent is able to (because of whatever emotional confusion or dependency has led to the question being asked). Ethical implications aside, I think in this situation Mark is right to remind T7 that she is the querent, represented by the ascendant, and to consider how this chart might be relating to her own relationship issues. I like the phrase that Zohra used, that horary requires us to ?look deep inside the mirror?.

Olivia Barclay left some classic words of wisdom on the need to not only ask an honest question, but to also ask it in a straightforward and honest manner, so that any necessary soul searching is done beforehand and both querent and astrologer can step beyond playing games with each other and get to the heart of the issue being asked about. I don?t know if this is what I would call an ?ethical guideline? but I think it?s an important one for maintaining a necessary sense of integrity in the question:

A question asked with naive simplicity is better than a carefully contrived one. If your question is indirect, so will the answer be. Sometimes it may take a while to understand your own motive in asking a question. We live in an age of euphemisms, when directness and forthright honesty ? so necessary in asking questions in horary ? is a rare and unpractised art. Some people are incapable of an honest approach, saying ?Is this a good moment to start a new venture?? and hoping you will think they mean a business venture, when in reality they mean ?Will I have a love affair with so and so? The astrologer must know the real question because judgement depends on understanding it - Horary Astrology Rediscovered

Now with Barclay I'm in complete agreement on this. The question certainly shapes the answer, and it behooves the querent to be completely honest, perhaps doubly so when asking questions for oneself. I've found in charts I've asked for myself, where I haven't been *completely* honest , that I'll get Neptune in the 1st or in the house of the quesited, anyway, or some other indication that I'm not walking the straight and narrow. Even if I don't incorporate that into the actual answer, it is certainly a warning; indeed I find all the outer planets are often good indicators of the mind of the querent.

My, those stars are smart. They -are- 'neer to God'.

I see this whole chart as being about Taurus7 and the guy she used to go out with. Whether the other woman will show up is incidental.

Mark,
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I asked this question about her and not him because I wanted to take myself OUT of the equation.

Since I'm not sure that this chart is completely radical, I'd just see Saturn as an obstacle in the path of Taurus7.

I think the chart is radical because there is planetary hour agreement.

I also don't know much of what to think of the recent sextile of Mercury to Venus, which is widely conjunct Algol. Maybe it means that Taurus7 has lost her head over the potential of her ex getting married.

You know, that is just so ludicrous, honestly!
This question was asked out of pure curiousity and no ulterior motive. I have to agree with the others when they say that it's really not my business, but I heard these stories about her and the question came.

If I wanted to ask a question about him, don't you think it would have made more sense to ask "Will we re-unite?" So I ask the question "Will she marry?", hoping that the horary will say no, and it did. Wow! By default that means he is going to come back to me, and this is my golden opportunity to pursue him again. Just brilliant!!

I'm a very direct person and I really don't have the time or inclination to beat around the bush, and that includes questions asked of the universe at large.

T7

Sue:

Not only that, you are asking this question with less than honourable intent and wishing this person harm by hoping that the her relationship will fail.

Sue,
How did you come to the conclusion that I am wishing this person harm and that I am hoping that her relationship will fail? With all due respect to you, you are making an assumption here and a value judgement about myself which is not based on anything but your own perception, and I don't think that's right.
T7

Thank you for your opinion all, I am sure that Taurus7 was asking an innocent question, maybe there were others means to rephrase it.

However, I will assume that the astrologer should have a role of accepting or not accepting to answer a question if he/she find it unethical. But the reality, how many astrologers want to lose their clientele only because they find someone picking in someone' else life!!!!

I guess the debates will always be for the astrologer to request the querent to rephrase the question without ambiguity or devious reasons and assess as to whether the question can still be answered.

Deb thank you for Lilly's text

"Note by Lilly. - Those that take this sober course, shall find the truth in what they enquire after; but whosoever do otherwise, deceive both themselves and the artist"

On my part, it does make me wonder as to whether I have or would have breached those rules, innocently or unethically when searching for answers.. But what is cleared and stated by Lilly's deception and illusion will be borned for both sides..

have a nice day

A question asked with naive simplicity is better than a carefully contrived one. If your question is indirect, so will the answer be. Sometimes it may take a while to understand your own motive in asking a question.

Golden words of wisdom...
I have to tell you honestly that this question was asked out of pure curiosity and I freely admit that I stand guilty of asking a "trivial" question, because that's exactly what it was. I heard these stories about her, and yes, I wondered if this marriage will take place or not. Can any of you truly and honestly say that you don't think back about an ex if you hear stories about him or his significant other? Well, you may not do horaries about them, it's true.... . But all kidding aside, I certainly wish her no harm, and am neutral regarding whether or not it will happen. Believe it or not, I have moved on and my life is richer for it.

But to come back to the astrology part, I'm rather surprised that I didn't get a late ascendant AND that there is planetary hour agreement. If the Universe felt as strongly about the ethical content about my question, I think it would have told me so. The Universe knows what's in my heart!!

And if it is also true that I am in the chart and signified by the ascendant (even though I tried so hard to get myself out of it), and horary should be used as a guidance tool, then this horary is telling me something. I just need to figure out what that might be...

T7

One of the problems with this kind of situation is that if you were chatting to any of us in private, it would be very easy to do some light hearted or non-offensive probing of why you are asking about someone related to your ex if you honestly don?t care anymore. (I don?t doubt what you are saying BTW). But this is your chart, so in a sense it?s not for any of us to second guess your motives or suggest what the chart might be trying to tell you outside of the question you asked. But it is interesting that the Moon is well placed in the 9th house, ruling the 11th, making a sextile to the asc-ruler and a conjunction with Venus which rules and is placed in the 9th. On the other hand the 7th house indications and the past aspects of the Moon look pretty dire. I wondered if the chart was trying to tell you that you are actually doing very nicely, but don?t get back involved in even thinking about that ex again, not even from a ?curiosity? point of view, because his influence in your life was damaging (7th ruler sq Saturn) and disruptive (Uranus conj. Desc), and could continue to have a negative affect on your way of thinking (7th ruler retrograde on 3rd cusp which is ruled by Mars; Jupiter being besieged between Mars and Saturn). Yes, of course the 7th house impediments could relate more specifically to your ex or his new fianc? and what happens between them, but either way that?s an area with a lot of affliction to be wary of.

I could not respond to the horary as to why you are showned in the chart, i am too novice. But joke on the side, you have added some spices to my day!!!!

take care
zohra

Was this chart done on June 22 or June 23? I had it down as June 23, with no planetary hour agreement, but I now think it's done on June 22, as per Deb's comments about the Moon applying to Venus and to Mercury and to Taurus7's statement about radicality. My mistake but the date wasn't in the original post.

I would still see Taurus7 as the ASC ruler and her ex as the 7th house ruler. With all forgiveness, that is the heart of the question. There is a concern there in some fashion, not with the fate of someone she doesn't even know that well.

I agree as almost always with Deb's comments but just add that the Moon gets frustrated in its application to Venus by its sextile with Mercury. Any guesses as to what Venus represents? It rules both the 9th and 2nd houses.

Perhaps Saturn does represent this woman, I wouldn't say a firm yes or no. But I do like that part about the past being not so good - Moon opposite Jupiter, Moon square Mars and Saturn - but the future being pretty good - Moon applying by sextile to Mercury with reception.

We do still have a big problem with Algol here. When the Moon reaches its sextile with Mercury it's a scant 11 minutes from Algol. I can't help but think that this relates somehow to the nature of the situation and question.

Sorry about the wrong date again.

I wondered if the chart was trying to tell you that you are actually doing very nicely, but don?t get back involved in even thinking about that ex again, not even from a ?curiosity? point of view, because his influence in your life was damaging (7th ruler sq Saturn) and disruptive (Uranus conj. Desc), and could continue to have a negative affect on your way of thinking (7th ruler retrograde on 3rd cusp which is ruled by Mars; Jupiter being besieged between Mars and Saturn).

Deb,
I think you hit it on the mark; if the ultimate goal of horary is to provide guidance, then this is it, it falls into place perfectly. The power of horary never ceases to amaze me and your understanding of how it falls into place is awesome!! You never miss!
Thank you.
- T7 -
P.S> Chart date: June 22nd..

thank you all.

that was brilliant, and beautifully educational!

mira

Deb:

I wondered if the chart was trying to tell you that you are actually doing very nicely, but don?t get back involved in even thinking about that ex again, not even from a ?curiosity? point of view, because his influence in your life was damaging (7th ruler sq Saturn) and disruptive (Uranus conj. Desc), and could continue to have a negative affect on your way of thinking (7th ruler retrograde on 3rd cusp which is ruled by Mars; Jupiter being besieged between Mars and Saturn). Yes, of course the 7th house impediments could relate more specifically to your ex or his new fianc? and what happens between them, but either way that?s an area with a lot of affliction to be wary of.

I was faithfully following Deb?s advise and did not approach any of my sources to find out when the happy event was to take place? (..grin..). Yesterday I got an e-mail from the fianc? (I had sent an e-mail to her about 2 years ago before they hooked up, so that?s probably how she got mine). It was a ?mass? e-mail probably sent to everyone she knew informing us of her new e-mail address, and she had changed her last name to his. I never heard from her for two years, but I think she definitely wanted me to get this one. And so I immediately figured that they had gotten married. Surprise, surprise, the horary was wrong!!!

Further down my list, I found an e-mail from a mutual friend who said ?You probably already know but they are getting married Oct 7th?! Coincidence that both e-mails hit me at the same time? Probably not. I think the universe wants me to know about this - not sure why...

OK, the horary hasn?t proven wrong yet?.

I took another look at the chart. How can a horary be wrong?

To recap, she is Mercury, my ex is Jupiter and I am the Moon. I asked the question "Will she marry?"; June 22, 2006, 74W26 40N51, 14 deg 10 minutes Virgo rising.

If Venus can be considered the natural significator of marriages, AND it is positioned in the 9th (house of marriage), then it shows her (Mercury) coming to ?perfection? with the marriage in 3 degrees or 3 months. Wow! *Almost* spot on ? Horary cast June 22nd, marriage date Oct 7th.

However, on further analysis I find Venus is actually moving faster than Mercury in this chart. In fact Mercury is slowing right down prior to going retrograde. So Mercury is trying to catch Venus but Venus enters Gemini before Mercury can reach it.

Mercury *does* get to sextile the natal degree of Venus (28 Cancer to 28 Taurus) four days later but by then Venus has moved on to 1 deg' Gemini. Frawley would say that this counts as perfection: Mercury reaching 28 Cancer, but the fact is, Venus is moving twice as fast and "escapes" into Gemini before Mercury gets to him. Something changes and this negates the perfection. This is an example of "refranation" - where Mercury refranes from making the aspect.

But on top of this, even BEFORE merc comes to a sextile with venus, moon sextiles mercury, so this would fit in with the prohibition scenario (i.e. a faster planet interposes before the aspect completes, therefore hinders?).

So now we have a double whammy, refranation AND prohibition.

And finally, Mercury goes retrograde anyway before it can catch up to Venus, which has moved into another sign anyway, so, in fact, we have a triple whammy! Wow!

Moon also represents flow of events, and in this chart rules his 5th (the festivals that they go to?) and her 11th (her friends), both significations fit in possibly with the one activity that they are most involved in: festivals, friends, and partying. UNLESS something happens at one of the festivals. Maybe the Moon represents one of her friends, and this friend gets to her before she gets to Venus. And she doesn't get there anyway; Venus moves into Gemini first.

Now let?s take a look at Jupiter (my ex, my 7th). Jupiter is besieged between mars and Saturn. Although I don?t have my solar fire chart with me, but I do believe that one of these 3 planets is conjunct the part of love, and another is conjunct the part of disaster - interesting combination. (I would appreciate if one of you could look this up, since I don?t have the chart before me).

Jupiter is coming to a square with Saturn, ruler of his 11th and 12th. Mars actually rules his 2nd and 9th, so this could be a legal matter to do with finances. Saturn rules his 11th and 12th, and this doesn't look good. Two malefics surround him and one of them rules his 12th - the house of self-undoing.

BUT regardless, they ARE getting married Oct 7th.

I?ve done a LOT of horaries since I first started 2 years ago, hundreds (no ? just kidding?), but I really did a lot, especially in the old days, and I have to say not ONE horary has proven itself wrong ? EXCEPT this one.
While it?s true that this horary still has a chance to be proven true, but I sincerely doubt it ? the date has been set, the invites must have been sent out, everything has been planned ? it?s too late for a cancellation this late in the game. How can a horary with at least THREE confirmations of "NO" and further evidence of all kinds of affliction possibly be wrong?

Can anyone see perfection in this chart? This is very intriguing.
Thanks.