It’s been some years since I read it, so it could seem slightly outdated now, but there’s a book titled Present Shock (When Everything Happens Now) by the author Douglas Rushkoff. It discusses some of the issues with our current society's accelerated way of life. From what I recall of it, I think that you might like it, James. I agree, for the most part, with the points raised about that issue in your post.

A couple of the points I took issue with:

One:

james_m wrote: The accessibility of astrology through online platforms and social media further reinforces this perception, with horary astrology often reduced to a form of digital entertainment consumed in bite-sized doses.

In this context, it's not surprising that superficial inquiries dominate the practice of horary astrology. Questions about trivial daily decisions or frivolous matters may abound, reflecting a culture that prioritizes convenience and entertainment over deeper reflection and insight.

How do they know that? Have they done a study? How was “superficiality” measured? I already addressed my opinion on this in my earlier post.

Two:

james_m wrote: To address this issue and restore the credibility of horary astrology, it's essential to cultivate a shift in mindset among both practitioners and clients. Education plays a crucial role in raising awareness about the depth and complexity of horary astrology, emphasizing its potential to provide profound insights into life's most significant questions. By fostering a culture of discernment and encouraging individuals to ask substantive questions that genuinely matter to them, horary astrology can reclaim its status as a valuable tool for self-discovery and decision-making.

Sure, people cast charts for questions that others might consider “trivialities” at times. But we’ve also got astrologers gossiping and making assumptions about celebrities and other people they’ve never met, and astrology being used to make mundane forecasts that suit specific political agendas! At least the horary stuff is mainly kept personal.

If the statement you were making with your post distributed its “triviality” claims a little more evenly, maybe I’d have agreed with some of what you had to say. But even then, there’s a part of me that’s like: People use astrology in ways that some find questionable? So what!? If you’re concerned about astrology's respectability, get to the business of doing what you consider respectable work and let that work stand on its own merit. Does a serious musician get upset whenever he goes into a store and has to hear generic crap play over the loudspeaker while he shops?

One last thing. You said yourself you're not a horary astrologer, James, so I don't know what you have or haven't read. But I can tell you that anyone who has taken the time to study horary seriously knows this: you can open pretty much any book written specifically to instruct in the art of horary, and you will find in its very first chapters discussions on “taking questions seriously” “getting a very clear understanding of the questions” “considerations before judgement” etc. You don't see this kind of "take this serious" thing in most modern books on general astrology or its most popular branch natal astrology, though it is in many older works. It could be said that horary astrologers are told to use caution more often than other types of practitioners! And serious practitioners do. I don't know of any serious horary astrologers (and I know quite a few) who don't take their client work very seriously. So the way that quote above begins with talking about how "it's essential to cultivate a shift in mindset among both practitioners and clients" can actually be seen as a little insulting.

And that's all I have to say on it for now. Have a good Sunday man :)

good morning jason!

i had a busy day yesterday... i went and saw my friends 10 piece band play innovative arrangements of beatles music in a jazz context.. it was really good... i then proceeded to play a fundraiser for a church my keyboard player friend is a member of... they sold 130 tickets and was a success financially...

in regards my question and my friends response... i am not a horary astrologer, so maybe my viewpoint is skewed by what i see mostly here at skyscript without going into specifics.. in the ''real world'' i am sure a lot of serious work is done by horary practitioners... so the superficial question you ask - that might be based off similar observations limited to skyscript and on the internet... it is not a ''scientific study'' if that is what you are asking...

about spreading the triviality idea around to other forms of astrology - absolutely, but i wasn't thinking about that when i asked the question to my friend.. it was with regard to horary specifically.. but i do agree with you about how astrology is practiced in the other areas as well... some of the answers provided to this general question also apply to those other areas of astrology too.. i am not singling out horary for this, but because i don't practice it, i was making some observations on it - all in my own subjective way too i might add..

as far as the idea of questioning how people practice astrology and your response to this - i agree - get to work demonstrating it's usefulness and value... this reminds me of martin waxing poetically on about the use and importance of primary directions, but ironically i never see him demonstrating them in real time... maybe he is not so much a practitioner as a historian or maybe he opts to keep this part of his work private and his commentary on skyscript is just for attracting students... i don't know.. the fact is this thread motivated you to respond and challenge the contents of it, and i think that is a good thing if it forces you or anyone else to reflect on what it is they are doing in astrology, regardless of the realm of astrology they are pursuing...

i have read a number of books on horary astrology, or including the topic in the book, and i like what you say in your last paragraph about how you don't see the same expression of the seriousness of the question of practice in reference to natal astrology and etc.. i will go back to your musical analogy - it takes all kinds and nothing can be dismissed so easily.. musicians like astrologers may be quick to dismiss the work or seriousness of those working in certain areas of music, it doesn't alter the course of much of anything - for the most part... musicians critic other musicians any number of ways - some of it as a teacher who would critic a student and some of it in perhaps less constructive ways... the point of my own ruminations on horary and the response of my friend was something i thought was worth bringing up publicly here at skyscript given my impression of how it is practiced here at skyscript... within this context, i think it is valid.. there you have it!

have a great monday my friend! the calendar has moved on...

Thanks for the thoughtful response James.

Glad to hear you had a busy -in very excellent ways- day yesterday.

Quickly, as I'm at work on lunch break so pressed for time (though I've gotta say that the sun is shining its warmth into me while some starlings are warbling through their extensive repertoires atop the barn roof above me - and it feels a little like heaven), I just want to address the specific call out you make on Martin Gansten. I don't need to defend him as I believe he's quite capable of doing that himself should he feel moved to, but just so you know James, he has contributed a couple of excellent (non academic) texts to the field of astrology, and in them are numerous chart examples showing his work. If you're interested I'm sure you can find a copies, they're widely available. I also have a friend who is studying PD's under his direction and she speaks very highly of his teaching style and what she's learned. So, he is walking the walk and not just talking the talk, as far as I can tell.

Anyway, Hope your week continues along nicely. I'll catch you around. :)

thanks jason

in fact, i have read martins books.. unfortunately he used personal examples in his latest book which are impossible to verify, unlike using well known public charts... that was his choice and i respect that, but it only goes so far..
enjoy the sunshine!
cheers
james

james_m wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 4:45 pm thanks jason

in fact, i have read martins books.. unfortunately he used personal examples in his latest book which are impossible to verify, unlike using well known public charts... that was his choice and i respect that, but it only goes so far..
enjoy the sunshine!
cheers
james

I guess we just see things differently again, James lol

When I see a technique or techniques being applied to any chart, regardless of how famous or well-documented the chart owner is, I still like to test it out for myself. Otherwise someone might just be trying to sell me a bridge. I have plenty of family and friend charts which I know well enough to do so with.

If the technique works it works - regardless of whether or not it was taught with a fictionalized chart.

And anyhow, why assume the worst? Geez man. lol

there is a lot of subjectivity to astrology, human beings and peoples interpretations of all this... i will acknowledge that!

james_m wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 5:15 pm there is a lot of subjectivity to astrology, human beings and peoples interpretations of all this... i will acknowledge that!

Sure, in some respects. But the techniques we are discussing here - horary and annual forecasting techniques - offer a chance to practice in a way that counters that subjectivity- an event or outcome does or does not take place.

Anyway, I think I'd like to move on from this conversation with you. I'll see you in some other thread and talk with you about something else.

I think you both, James and Jason, had a good conversation here about (mis)understanding each other! Unfortunately my English is not that good that I can understand subtelities of a text and sometimes it is also hard for me to express my feelings and thoughts in written English words…

Nevertheless I want to add something to this question:

james_m wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 4:43 pm…how relevant are the questions? …

John Frawley discussed this matter in one of his books saying roughly that one could say in the face of the universe all our questions are meaningless. To ask if the king will be a good one or where my cat has gone, both is (not) relevant for the big picture. Concerning this he added that so it is not on us the decide if the question: „Where is my cookbook?” is relevant or not.It is of the same importance as any other. So far John Frawley and I agree despite of my own preferences and own importances.

If the question is relevant for the questioner and is he serious about it; this seems important to me. It demands some knowledge of human nature.

thanks georgius

the idea of the validity of the question is something to ponder... you reminded me of another few books on horary that i read - john frawleys....

i also read anthony louis's website to try to understand horary better, in spite of my not practicing it... some interesting commentary was made in a post yesterday which i will share here.. here is the post https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2024/05 ... in-horary/

and here is anthonys response to a comment in the comment section...

"Yes, horary astrologers do get wrong answers and usually review the chart to try to understand why they got it wrong. As you pointed out, many so-called horary questions are simply based on idle curiosity or are not horary questions at all. A genuine horary question requires that the querent be sincere and have a pressing personal reason to ask a question that he or she is unable to answer by any other means. A chart for an insincere or idle question is unlikely to give a valid answer any better than the flip of a coin."

it appears other professional horary astrologers think about this question on the nature of the questions as well...

Thanks for sharing the link and Anthony's comments, James.

I suppose it all comes full circle eventually:

james_m wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 5:15 pm there is a lot of subjectivity to astrology, human beings and peoples interpretations of all this... i will acknowledge that!

I did not do that many horaries (maybe 20?) and my greatest successes where for the following questions:

• ”Where is my billed cap?” (own question)
• ”Where is the key to the letterbox?” (clients question)
• ”Where is my wallet?” (clients question)

Not terrible serious questions! But the outcome could be proofed definitely. The others were right (but not spectacular), wrong, partial wrong, partial right to some extent or could not be proofed undoubtedly.

georgius,

perhaps your experience reflects something in the nature of the questions you ask.. but it might reflect your evolving ability to answer them via horary too... something to ponder or not.. cheers james