Does something particularly stand out to you about Labouré's comments?

Penelope,

I just saw the book of Labouré today by reading your post that revived the interest in Morin's works.
Labouré is a sure value. He wrote about 15 books and one I have from him that he co-wrote with Chantal Etienne is about Horary astrology using sidereal Indian square charts (inspired from the Prasna Tantra written by Neelakanta in 1567)... and combining the teachings of Morin de Villefranche.
Sounds odd but his style is concise, clear and always to the point.
His most popular book is 'Cours Pratique d'Astrologie' where he teaches the basics of traditional and Hellenistic astrology.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 8:37 pm He wrote about 15 books and one I have from him that he co-wrote with Chantal Etienne is about Horary astrology using sidereal Indian square charts (inspired from the Prasna Tantra written by Neelakanta in 1567)... and combining the teachings of Morin de Villefranche.

That sounds interesting. What's the title? Incidentally, Nīlakaṇṭha didn't really author the Praśnatantra, although he may or may not have been responsible for the collage that is commonly attributed to him of excerpts from the original Praśnatantra (written by Samarasiṃha around 1291 CE as a Sanskrit epitome of Sahl ibn Bishr's work on horary) and other, chiefly non-Tājika works. The Tājikanīlakaṇṭhī that he did write was completed in 1587. I published an Open Access paper on the origins of the Praśnatantra a decade ago (available here) and am currently editing the work by Samarasiṃha of which it forms a part.

Martin,

Thanks for the source and reference to Nilakantha.

The name of the book is called 'Manuel d'Astrologie Divinatoire', by Denis Labouré and Chantal Etienne, from Arcana Sacra, 2019. Full of practical examples.
I couldn't find the edition I have on the website of Arcana Sacra but it can be found on Amazon.

Denis Labouré and Marc Neu created their own publishing house, Éditions Spiritualité Occidentale. to fill the lack of interest in the publishing world for serious astrology, by offering quality works to complement their online courses.
https://www.academie-astrologie.com/nos-livres

In the section Vedic astrology, he has a book called "Cours pratique d'astrologie védique" but I am not sure it is the same.
At least 5 books in the Horary section including 'Astrologie Horaire' by Claude Dariot.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Labouré is a sure value. He wrote about 15 books and one I have from him that he co-wrote with Chantal Etienne is about Horary astrology using sidereal Indian square charts (inspired from the Prasna Tantra written by Neelakanta in 1567)... and combining the teachings of Morin de Villefranche.
Sounds odd but his style is concise, clear and always to the point.

Ouranos,

It makes sense to me to use various doctrines and techniques in accord with horoscopic method as Morin describes it. Sounds like Labouré is even using that method with a different system of astrology. I find that interesting because I take method in this sense to be much broader than doctrine and technique. I take it to be the way that we practice the horoscopic art using particular doctrines and techniques. This distinction between method vs. doctrine and technique is something like the difference between different kinds and styles of bridge-building that all make proper use of the method required to effectively--and safely in the case of bridge-building--practice the art of engineering.

Penelope wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 8:11 pm The Baldwin version of Book 21 is largely a paraphrase, and sometimes a summary. The paraphrases, though many are good enough, are often weak, frequently less than clear, fairly often confusing (including by the misuse or disregard of terms-of-art that have exact, very clear and highly clarifying, meanings), and sometimes downright wrong, including some that directly contradict what Morin says. Baldwin's version also omits some parts of what Morin wrote, and even adds a few things Morin does not say. [...]

Penelope, do you have any particular passage(s) that you could point to in order to illustrate the differences between Baldwin's translation and your own? I have both, as well as a soft copy of the 1661 Latin edition.

Also, am I right in assuming that you know Spanish?

[quote Penelope, do you have any particular passage(s) that you could point to in order to illustrate the differences between Baldwin's translation and your own? I have both, as well as a soft copy of the 1661 Latin edition.

Also, am I right in assuming that you know Spanish?
[/quote]

Hi Martin,

Yes, I do have quite a number of examples, and glad you're interested. I'm very happy for people to see some examples of the kinds of significant problems with the Baldwin version, and the problems that version creates for one who wants to clearly understand what Morin says in Book 21. You can see some set out on The Wessex Astrologer website at https://www.wessexastrologer.com/why-we ... pe-sitter/.

I also have set out in an 18-page document some of the same comparisons, and a number of others, with explanations of problems in those passages in the Baldwin version.

I don't know forum etiquette well enough to know whether that document is too long to politely post here. If it's okay to post it, I'll be happy to copy and paste it into a post here. If not, I'd be happy to send it by email to anyone who would like to see it. Is it appropriate to post that quite long document here?

Yes, I do know Spanish quite well. Knowing another Romance language is, of course, a great help in understanding Latin, as is also an interest in etymology. Both have helped me with Latin.

Thanks again for your interest.

Just a few words Penelope to say I have enjoyed your interview with Chris Brennan to discuss your book more in depth.
The Astrology podcast Episode 449
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I liked the idea of the Triplicities of the Houses that you have explained and how it is close to Jyothish.
And also the example you gave of a Sun in bad celestial state by house and aspect directed will not end up in fame and honors. A good reminder to always keep the natal in front of us.

Regarding a planet in poor terrestrial state beginning the action and its dispositor taking over.
What if it is the dispositor beginning the action? Will the dispositor carry a millstone around its neck?

You also mentioned in your project to translate the Cabala of the Houses.
You might be interested to add up in your contact list Pepa Josefa Sanchis Llacer, a Spanish astrologer who has been a Latin graduate since 1983 and a specialist in the astrology of Morin de Villefranche. She translated Cabala of the Houses in French. I have found a picture of her but doesn't know more about her.
http://www.scarabelli.org/Pepita_Sanchis.html

Be well,
Ouranos

Thank you for the link, Penelope. I think it might be better to share the document privately with interested members. I'd be glad to have it (info [at] martingansten [dot] com).

Ouranos wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:28 am I liked the idea of the Triplicities of the Houses that you have explained and how it is close to Jyothish.

I haven't listened to the podcast, so I don't know exactly what was said, but with regard to Indian astrology, decans and triplicities seem to have been conflated very early on, probably due to misunderstanding.

Martin Gansten wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:41 am I think it might be better to share the document privately with interested members.

Martin,

I've sent the document to you, and will be happy to send it to anyone who would like to receive it.

Thanks for your interest,

Penelope

Regarding a planet in poor terrestrial state beginning the action and its dispositor taking over.
What if it is the dispositor beginning the action? Will the dispositor carry a millstone around its neck?

Hi Ouranos,

That's an interesting question. "Terrestrial state" is the term Morin uses for a planet's placement among the houses--by house location, rulership, aspect or antiscion, and opposite house location. "Celestial state" is the term he uses for a planet's placement in the Sky--by sign occupation, relationship with other planets and fixed stars, and its own motion and position in the Sky. A planet's terrestrial state tells us the earthly things the planet signifies and acts upon; its celestial state, taken with its essential nature, tells us the quality of its action.

The terrestrial state of a planet and its dispositor comes under the powerful and essential technique of house combinations, which Morin treats in some detail in Book 21, Section 2, Chapters 4 & 5. It would be a bit much to go into those considerations here.

Morin states a rule in Book 21 that can be summed up as: “Where you see a planet’s dispositor it is as if you see the disposed planet.” He focuses in the following passage on the celestial state of the dispositor, but not that of the disposed planet. He says, as translated in Morin's Book 21, p. 84:

Fifth. A Planet that is ruler of one house in another acts not only by reason of the house it occupies and that it rules, but also [by reason] of Planets appearing in [the house it rules]. And so, if the ruler of Mercury is found in the first house, it prefigures the inborn talent of the native, even if Mercury is outside the first house. And the ruler of the Sun in the tenth, honors; and so of the others. Because doubtless any Planet acts on the native by reason of both states of its ruler, of course, Celestial and Terrestrial. And therefore, if [Mercury] has his ruler in the first house well conditioned, he will act on the native by reason of the significations of the first house, and especially inborn talent, owing to the analogy; and this fortunately, owing to the well conditioned state of the ruler.

He also says, as translated in Morin's Book 21, p. 121:

Moreover, if a Planet is badly affected by Celestial or Terrestrial state, or both, but its ruler is well [affected], harms and misfortunes will be signified in the beginning, but benefit and good fortune will follow, especially if that Planet applies to its ruler by a fortunate ray. If, however, a Planet is well affected but its ruler badly affected, benefit will end in misfortune and hope will be fruitless. If both are well affected, this will be the best, whether the Planet is in the fortunate houses of the figure conferring their benefits, or in the unfortunate ones removing or mitigating their misfortunes. Finally, if both are badly affected, this will be the worst, whether the Planet is in the unfortunate houses of the figure conferring their misfortunes, or in the fortunate ones removing or obstructing their benefits.

These comparisons of the effect of a planet and its dispositor in different combinations of favorable and unfavorable celestial state indicate that the favorable or unfavorable celestial state of a disposed planet will have an effect on the action of its dispositor.

I would like to post Cardinal Richelieu's nativity. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find or figure out how to do that here. If anyone can send me to some instructions or tell me how, I will post the chart. But I’ll attach it. ..And now, with Jason's help, I'll place it inline.
The nativity of Cardinal Richelieu, an outstandingly powerful figure in the court of King Louis XIII during Morin’s lifetime, shows Mars in Scorpio closely conjunct a very late Libra Ascendant. Mars sends a square to Ascendant ruler Venus on the MC in Leo. Saturn is fallen in Aries in the Regiomontanus 6th, disposed to that Mars. Mars also rules Richelieu’s 2nd, which by house derivation is the death of others—8th from the 7th. Mars’ location on the Ascendant says that the others’ death is ruled from Richelieu’s 1st—that is, that the death of others is in Richelieu’s figurative hands. He saw to the execution of numerous persons who plotted against him. I believe we can safely say that Saturn’s unfavorable celestial state contributed through his disposition to Mars to Richelieu’s aggressive or dangerous character and temperament—while Saturn also influences the Ascendant through his rulership of the Ascendant by exaltation. We also can say that the fallen state of Saturn in the 6th through his disposition to the Ascendant by Mars contributed to the harm Saturn did to Richelieu’s health—while Saturn does harm to Richelieu’s health also in other ways: as exaltation ruler of the Ascendant in the 6th, and by combining the 1st and 12th by simultaneously ruling (by exaltation) the Ascendant and the Regiomontanus 12th. So, as Saturn comes to the Ascendant through his disposition by Mars, his unfavorable celestial state adds to the danger of Richelieu’s character and temperament, and adds to the harm to his health.

You also mentioned in your project to translate the Cabala of the Houses.
You might be interested to add up in your contact list Pepa Josefa Sanchis Llacer, a Spanish astrologer who has been a Latin graduate since 1983 and a specialist in the astrology of Morin de Villefranche. She translated Cabala of the Houses in French. I have found a picture of her but doesn't know more about her. http://www.scarabelli.org/Pepita_Sanchis.html

I didn’t know that Pepita Sanchis Llacer translated Morin’s Cabala of the Houses, and didn’t know that she translates to French. Anthony Louis’ translation of Morin’s Book 18 of Astrologia Gallica is from her Spanish-language translation of that book. I’m aware that she works with Morin’s teachings, and has done other translations of his work. Nice to see her photo. Much of the Cabala of the Houses is included in quite similar terms in Book 17, which James Holden translated. There is an introductory section to the Cabala that is not more or less reproduced in Book 17, and which is not included in George Wharton's 17th century translation. The introduction includes some interesting things about Morin's relationship with astrology.

Thank you for your detailed explanation Penelope,
There are many filiations to the work of Morin in different countries.
James Holden and Robert Corre have studied largely Morin and their expertise is a great resource for astrologers.
And you mention Anthony Louis. I follow his blog regularly and I like his explanations when he features a passage of Morin.

Have a nice day,
Ouranos

Penelope wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 1:22 am
I would like to post Cardinal Richelieu's nativity. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find or figure out how to do that here. If anyone can send me to some instructions or tell me how, I will post the chart. But I’ll attach it.

Hi Penelope,

I'm looking forward to picking up a copy of your translation. Thanks for all that you've done to clarify Morin's positions.

As for attaching a chart, or any image, you can use the "Attachments" option below the text box of the post you are typing. I assume you've figured that part out.

Once you've uploaded the file, place your cursor where you'd like to position the image amongst the text and then scroll down beneath the text box. You'll see under the attachment an option to 'Place Inline', by clicking on this, the attachment will be shown where you placed the cursor in the text box:
Hope this is helpful :)