Morin rejects Decans, i.e. they don't count when calculating dignities in a chart.
More important - and more intereting: As far as I know Morin accepts planets being peregrine, but he does not include peregrinity when calculating dignities.
I find the explanation of peregrinity in Skyscript's glossary quite helpful.

But: Is Morin right when counting out peregrinity with respect to dignities?

(My moon rules the AC, it's peregrine. And what I read in the glossary seems to match my personal experience with that planet.)

Lunlumo wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:34 am (My moon rules the AC, it's peregrine. And what I read in the glossary seems to match my personal experience with that planet.

So, there is your answer!

You're quite right.
Morin rejected the Decans, as I wrote. He didn't reject peregrinity. It seems with a view to that he followed the traditional view.
However - unlike Lilly - he didn't take peregrinity into account when it came to calculating the dignities.
Obviously Morin thinks that being peregrine may be quite a burden ("lonely pilgrim" , "stranger in a strange land" etc.).
But according to him it doesn't really weaken the planet concerned.
Who's right: Lilly or Morin ?

Lunlumo wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:33 pm You're quite right.
Morin rejected the Decans, as I wrote. He didn't reject peregrinity. It seems with a view to that he followed the traditional view.
However - unlike Lilly - he didn't take peregrinity into account when it came to calculating the dignities.
Obviously Morin thinks that being peregrine may be quite a burden ("lonely pilgrim" , "stranger in a strange land" etc.).
But according to him it doesn't really weaken the planet concerned.
Who's right: Lilly or Morin ?

In theory, if we view lack of connection, as lack of peers, then CEOs, famous actors, dictators etc. all of them can be seen as peregrine/lacking aspects in a specific situation. They aren't weak because of it, though. "stranger in strange land" suggests they are out of place, we don't know that, however.

As the place should come from Sign/House. So they may be isolated/lonely in a strange land or isolated/lonely at home. They can be very strong and comfortable in their own home(Exaltation etc.), so in many aspects it may be stronger position then having a lot of connections, I guess.

Anyway, being in ones own home is one thing. Being without connection there is another. The second one can be weakness in some question... But can be strength in others, in my humble view.

Of course, this is mostly aimed at horary, as that is what I focus on now. And in there, as usual, it will depend on the question, it seems.


For birthchart reading... If we view how life on Earth goes, this is studied in great details. And people outside communities tend to have shorter life span. Also we can see in places with highest lifespans people have great sense of community and curiously not very strong sense for "possession". So in that aspect it can be seen as a weakness. Yet again, if we view it in context of specific question, and as far as getting specific result in many cases it would be a strength, as that is kinda obvious if we just look around.

In my opinion peregrinity is about quality not power. Accidental dignities show power not essential ones. There might be a highly dignified planet without power to act. Think of Saturn in Capricorn in the 12. house conjunct South Node. Stability, reliability, order, discipline, sobriety… but no opportunity to express his best side. You see I don’t agree with Random.

Peregrinity is described as neutral quality with a tendency towards badness. It has nothing to do with the ability to act or express.

I don’t know enough of Morinus to tell what he was thinking. But I don’t see a objection, not Lilly cross Morinus concerning this matter.

interesting conversation!!!

what is the difference between lilly and morin in terms of the type of astrology they did??

i think lilly was primarily focused on horary, while morin was not... how much of a difference would that make??

i think randoms commentary applying these astro principles in horary makes sense...

here is an ongoing question that i have that i don't believe has been addressed by the astrological community in any clear way... can you take these different ideas, or astrological principles - peregrine for example - and apply them the same way to all the different facets of astrology?? i don't think you can... there is a big difference between horary and natal astrology in terms of whether you can apply the rules of horary to natal interpretation and etc. etc.. there is much confusion over this as i see it and i think it has to do with bringing different tools to completely different tasks.... thoughts anyone??

Thanks a lot for helpful comments. Maybe indeed one has to see the difference between horary astrology/Lilly and Morin (who, as far as I know did not often or never practise horary astrology.
And as to "strong" vs. "weak": A "pilgrim" or "stranger" having to live in a country under dictatorship will be in a "weak" position - but may be morally "strong", especially when opposing the régime.

Lunlumo wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:54 amA "pilgrim" or "stranger" having to live in a country under dictatorship will be in a "weak" position - but may be morally "strong", […].

This is not what is ment by ”peregrin“, which is a slight essential weakness indicating a dubious state of morality.

And as to "strong" vs. "weak": A "pilgrim" or "stranger" having to live in a country under dictatorship will be in a "weak" position - but may be morally "strong", especially when opposing the régime.

I very much agree, depending on the question they will show up as weak or strong. That also may work for any other situation, in my humble view.

" but no opportunity to express his best side. " I can agree with that. But nothing to do with Power here, its about circumstances.

"Peregrinity is described as neutral quality with a tendency towards badness. It has nothing to do with the ability to act or express."
I'm my humble view, the idea with all this systems is to look how something shows in life then make definition from there. Using someone elses definition, trying to figure out how it shows in a situation can be very confusing, as everything happening there can be coming from another source.
Using how people saw it before and trying to find that, can be a good idea, but shouldn't be done too long, we all see the world in our own way and aligning the systems to that is wise to be done early on.

Peregrine means it doesn't make aspects and it won't make them for some more time to come. Since it comes from the idea of "won't make them forward in time" we already know this isn't static state, this is a period something is going through. That is how we calculate it. Then we can see what definition of "aspects" we are using and look in the world of how it looks when someone doesn't create "aspects" with situations, people or environment.
If we view "aspects" as opportunities, then Peregrine as a state, suggests lack of opportunity. If we view them as "goodness" then Peregrine suggests inclination toward badness. First one makes much more sense to me, but I can see some logic in the second in rare cases.

In my humble view, this is not right, though:
"There might be a highly dignified planet without power to act."

We don't need power to act. People act out of desperation all the time, not because they are asigned power to do something, but because they really can't stand staying in the state they are in.
For example in Chinese medicine there is the concept of "empty heat". If in someone ill we see overwhelming symptoms of strong fire, that may come from 2 sources. One is if the fire is very strong. That can be seen as "power to act" I guess. But the other is if fire is weak, but the water is even weaker. If we translate that to horary and to the world around its same idea.

Suggesting, that "power to act" can be misleading. Someone can act without having any power and for good or bad, in current state of the world that is observed a lot more often.
If we want a planet to have a power to act we may be surprised when we see it acting in a very severe way without having any power. As "acting" require different setups, doesn't always come from having power to do so.

Why focusing so much on that one sentence... Because the idea of Power in my humble view, is one of the places where ancient astrology needs to include the new "Planets" out there. As that idea of "Power" we have today, comes with the industrial revolution, we can see it very clearly with the World War 2 and comes with the discovery of Pluto. As the mass production in this way introduces "coldness" in human relations, that showed up, guided by Pluto in this way. Before that they didn't had it, they called "Power" other stuff.

That is just my humble view, of course.

Random wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 7:55 amPeregrine means it doesn't make aspects and it won't make them for some more time to come.

Sorry, that‘s definitly wrong in the sense that term was and is used.

Well - being peregrine traditionally means no dignities at all, including terms and decans.
But I can imagine that a) being peregrine and b) having no significant aspects at all would really present a serious problem.
Might be interesting to find a chart that could illustrate that.

That would be interesting. In Lilly’s famous question about stolen fish (“Christian Astrology”, Book 2, Chapter 64) the ruler of the ascendant VE is peregrin and in its exil and without traditional aspects.