This is concerning a girl who I had a short fling with (about a months time) about 15 years ago. She would be 36 years old today. I was in the process of moving away to a different city at the time so it didn't evolve into a relationship between us. I have thought about her on and off through the years, but for one reason or another I didn't keep in contact with her. A few days ago I had an intense desire to see how she was doing, but when I checked I saw her last online post on social media was on facebook in October of 2023, so it's been a year of online silence from her almost. She has had a hard life of abuse and tragic relationships with partners, so her mental state was fragile. I texted the last few numbers associated with her, but so far no reply. I have looked online for obituaries of her, but I have found nothing. I feared the worst, so I cast the chart for the time and city in whch I live and I ask: Is she dead?

I take her for the 5th house, and this means she is the Sun in her own house of Leo. In her derived 6th house the Moon is unwell in Capricorn, a harsh placement for her which could indicate sickness, and Pluto is also retrograde and moving back towards the forward moving Moon, so perhaps impending death from said sickness. Her derived 8th house is Pisces which has a retrograde Saturn and retrograde Neptune within it. Pisces and Neptune make me think of drug abuse, perhaps an overdose. The Lord of the 8th is Jupiter which is Conjunct Mars which could perhaps be interpreted as a sign of a violent death. Jupiter is also square Saturn, death significator meeting death significator. Jupiter is Sextile her Sun, so perhaps it means she passed quickly. And finally, her Venus in Virgo is Fallen, exactly Opposite to the Retrograde Saturn. Another disturbing testimony.

I think this means she may be dead, but please let me know what you all think, I am too close to this situation to be truly objective, and I do want her to be alive. I would be very grateful for your assessment of if she died and if so how she died, the manner of her death.

Hello Ninneveh,

Would you consider looking at the 7th House for this person?
What do you see if you were looking at Venus Lord of the 7th?

Ouranos

Hello Ouranos,

If taking her as the 7th house I see that her 1st house has South Node, an unfortunate testimony. In her 4th house of endings her secondary significator the Moon is ill-disposed as I mentioned previously, and Pluto has previously been here, and is returning because of it's retrograde. An indication of death. Her 6th house contains Saturn and Neptune both retrograde, indicating some kind of sickness. Her 8th house has Uranus Conjunct Algol in it, a testimony of sudden death. Her Main Significator Venus who is also the 8th lord is Cadent and Fallen in her 12th, and directly opposed to retrograde Saturn from her 6th. These testimonies lead me to conclude death.

Ninneveh wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:01 pmIf taking her as the 7th house I see that her 1st house has South Node, an unfortunate testimony. In her 4th house of endings her secondary significator the Moon is ill-disposed as I mentioned previously, and Pluto has previously been here, and is returning because of it's retrograde.

No, unless you use Whole Sign Houses the South Node is in the radical 6th, turned 12th. Moon is in the turned 3rd. Pluto is in the turned 4th.

Another remark: In horary Regiomontanus houses are common. And in this case there are important differences to Placidus. Look at the 8th and 2nd, there are other lords:

Georgius wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:54 pm

Ninneveh wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:01 pmIf taking her as the 7th house I see that her 1st house has South Node, an unfortunate testimony. In her 4th house of endings her secondary significator the Moon is ill-disposed as I mentioned previously, and Pluto has previously been here, and is returning because of it's retrograde.

No, unless you use Whole Sign Houses the South Node is in the radical 6th, turned 12th. Moon is in the turned 3rd. Pluto is in the turned 4th.

Another remark: In horary Regiomontanus houses are common. And in this case there are important differences to Placidus. Look at the 8th and 2nd, there are other lords:

death.png

Thank you Georgius. I was indeed using whole signs. Reading from the Regiomantus house system perspective, what is your interpretation of this horary if you wish to share? But I understand completely if you do not.

I do not feel ethically comfortable to say that someone is dead.

Let me try to summarize what I see in your chart (Regiomontanus).
Your friend is sick and most likely hospitalized
- ASC (turned 7th in Libra) in square to the Part of Sickness 25 Cap32
- L1 Venus on the cusp of the 12th in a Grand Square MA/JU-SA-FOR
- L1 Venus in fall square JU L6 in detriment
- L1 applying to SA R in the 6th (chronic and long duration)
- AS=SU/NE To be surrounded by sick people

Last aspect of the Moon was a trine to ME R at 29Leo (anaretic degree) and ruling her 8th indicating a transformation and psychological crisis.
This ME R is slow, peregrine and combust indicating a withdrawal from social interactions (in the 11th).
Next aspect of the Moon (detriment from the 3rd) is a trine to VE (fall and cusp of the 12th).
A FM early September at 11 Vir 04 can bring some news about your friend.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Ouranos wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 11:37 pm I do not feel ethically comfortable to say that someone is dead.

Let me try to summarize what I see in your chart (Regiomontanus).
Your friend is sick and most likely hospitalized
- ASC (turned 7th in Libra) in square to the Part of Sickness 25 Cap32
- L1 Venus on the cusp of the 12th in a Grand Square MA/JU-SA-FOR
- L1 Venus in fall square JU L6 in detriment
- L1 applying to SA R in the 6th (chronic and long duration)
- AS=SU/NE To be surrounded by sick people

Last aspect of the Moon was a trine to ME R at 29Leo (anaretic degree) and ruling her 8th indicating a transformation and psychological crisis.
This ME R is slow, peregrine and combust indicating a withdrawal from social interactions (in the 11th).
Next aspect of the Moon (detriment from the 3rd) is a trine to VE (fall and cusp of the 12th).
A FM early September at 11 Vir 04 can bring some news about your friend.

Best to you,
Ouranos

Thank you very much Ouranos. Can you expand on how one can arrive at AS=SU/NE? I'm still very unfamiliar with using midpoints. I tried calculating the Midpoint of The Sun and Neptune but it's giving me 11°28 Gemini. Interesting that you bring up the Part of Sickness. It made me check the Part of Death, and it is apparently directly opposite the Moon and square the South Node in the 12th (Regiomantus). Mercury's state (as you described) is also impacted by a square with Uranus on the cusp of the 8th (Regiomantus), so could mean isolation to a dangerous degree. What would your interpretation be of the Moon's next aspect? Trines are usually positive, but these positions and dignities are not so great.

You are right about the midpoint AS=SU/NE
It falls at 11 Gem 36
In the 45 Wheel, the ASC=ME/Chiron falls at 25Gem23,which John Sandback relates to
"One's personality communicates healing energy to others. One's essential sense of being has a way of making others realize how deeply connected they are to everything."
You can read more on this midpoint here
https://midpointobservatory.blogspot.co ... hiron.html
-----------
As for the trine between debilitated planets, they lack 'power to act'. I remember a horary case with a trine between MO in Scorpio, a woman (Fall) and MA in Cancer, the doctors (Fall). This was the case of a woman who fell into a coma after an accident and the doctors decided not to perform any surgery and leave her in her coma state and see how her condition would unfold.

Ninneveh wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 9:52 pmReading from the Regiomantus house system perspective, what is your interpretation of this horary if you wish to share? But I understand completely if you do not.

Every second of the day people die. We do not want to think of this that often but that’s a fact we have to live with. So death has to be taken into account. In my opinion astrology has the duty to deal with it. I feel great responsibility in relation to astrological questions about death. In spite of being something of general human perception death has to do with very strong emotions. In your case you are thinking of death already, you are a astrologer yourself and so you know we all can err even if astrology itself can not. Furthermore you use a pseudonym so your person is largely protected.

The lord of the hour was Mars which is L1 so the chart is valid. A testimony that the questioner is in touch with celestial proceedings and one is allowed to delineate it.

Now one of the things I learned about horary is that choosing significators is very important and not that easy one might think.

Ninneveh wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:41 amA few days ago I had an intense desire to see how she was doing.

I consider this statement as very important for me. Can you report on which day this desire arose? It will help me to choose the right significator for her.

Here is what I am looking at for health and sickness, greatly inspired by Denis Labouré and Chantal Etienne in their book 'Manuel d'Astrologie Divinatoire'.
Modified but it provides a general guideline. Not to be viewed as a final stance, a work in progress.


Patient = ASC, ruler of the ASC and the Moon
Doctor = 7th, ruler of the 7th
Disease = 6th, ruler of the 6th
Treatment = 10th, ruler of the 10th
Hospitalization = 12th, ruler of the 12th
Surgery = 8th, ruler of the 8th and Mars, Part of Surgery
Death = 8th, ruler of the 8th, Part of Death
Vitality = Sun
-------------------------
No disease to be suspected when
1) The 1st and 6th are free from afflictions.
2) No relationship between the 1st and the 6th
3) The rulers of the 1st and 6th are not afflicted, associated or aspected by Houses 6,8,12 and their rulers.
4) The nature of the disease will be from the aspects received by the ruler of the 1st or the planets occupying the 6th.
5) A relationship between the 5th and 8th or their rulers suggests psychosomatic or mental disorders.
6) The reverse to the above is a red signal.
--------------------------
Conditions in favor of recovering
1) Ruler of the 1st dignified or accidentally dignified must be preferably stronger than the ruler of the 6th.
2) A benefic in the 1st is a protection. In the 6th, a quick recovery.
3) A benefic in the 7th indicates a right diagnostic.
4) A favorable association, aspect, mutual reception or planets friendly between the 1st and 7th for a proper diagnostic, an appropriate therapy and healing following.
5) If the ruler of the 6th is combust, the patient will recover
6) A strong Moon, the disease can be cured.
7) If the ruler of the 1st and the Moon apply to the benefics, the healing is guaranteed.
8 ) Check when a combust planet comes out of combustion = recovery
9) Oriental to the Sun is new, fresh, young and something which has not evolved over a long period of time. Occidental is older, decaying and indicates something permanent or chronic but it is not always bad if you consider the Sect. For SU, JU, SA (day sect) behave better when Oriental versus MA, VE and MO (night sect) more comfortable when Occidental. ME will accompany the sect of the SU.
--------------------------
Less favorable conditions of recovery
1) The ruler of the 1st in 6th and the ruler of 6th in 1st
2) If both benefics and malefics afflict the 6th, it indicates a slow recovery or ups and downs.
3) If the ruler of the 1st or 6th is retrograde = relapse
4) If the Moon applies to Saturn or a retrograde planet = chronic
5) Saturn exalted in 6th or 8th = difficult recovery
--------------------------
Complications
1) The Moon applying to the ruler of the 1st or 6th retrograde and especially by conjunction.
2) The 6th or its ruler in any relationship (occupied, aspect, mutual reception) with the ruler of the 8th (surgery) or 12th (hospitalization) or their rulers.
3) The ruler of the 1st or the Moon applying to the ruler of the 12th
4) 3 midpoints I also consider for health
MA/SA - Chronic, surgery, death
MA/UR - Surgery
SA/NE - main midpoint for illness
--------------------------
Duration of the disease
1) Short-term if the ruler of the 1st or 6th are fast
2) Malefics fast. A fast Mars will be shorter than a fast Saturn.
3) Healing will occur when the malefics are changing signs or are past the 1st or 6th or their rulers. However, when the malefics are changing signs at the same time as the ruler of the 1st or 6th, it shows a modification in good or bad according to the new sign.
--------------------------
Datation
1) More difficult when the Sun is transiting in 6th,8th or 12th.
2) Easier in 1st, 5th and 9th.
3) Check the months when the SU is square to its natal position as it depletes vitality.

Hi Ninneveh,
the chart is quite complicated and unfortunately not positive, at least in my judgment, do not take it as coming from the Bible, it's just astrology.
I start choosing a different house for the missing girl.
She is not the 5th house for sure (not your child) but not the seven house either.
We have to consider only your present relationship with this girl , the very brief relation of 15 years ago in my opinion is not enough to give her the status of partner but that said we cannot even give her the generic status of "third person".
I may be wrong, but It is my opinion that when treating of missing persons of which we do not know the whereabouts and that have no direct relation with us we should use the 1st house, his Lord and the moon to signify that person.
This is very clear in William Lilly book at page 151 "if a question is demanded of one absent in a general way and the querent has no relation to the party; then the first house, the lord of that house and the moon shall signify the absent party"
Again at page 156 " in the figure above let us admit the question to have been demanded for one absent : the Ascendant etc.etc.....and the moon are significator of the absent party"
In your case I would consider Aries, Mars and the Moon.
I usually prefer to keep the house system used by the owner of the chart, but in this chart even if we take Regiomontanus the result doesn't change too much, it becomes just a little worse.

Placidus Houses
No planets in the first house
Mars is an infortune , a bad start in the reading of this chart,
Mars is also the lord of the 8th house, quite bad, it could mean self-undoing.
Mars is in its terms, not bad, but in the second house
Mars is conjunt Jupiter which is in detriment thus acting as an infortune., Jupiter is also the dispositor of the Lot of Fortune in the 8th house and thus acting as co-lord of the same (lots cannot act as planets but their dispositors can act for them), probably not so strong as a co-lord of 8th but cannot leave it aside
Mars is square to malefic Saturn, peregrine on the cusp of the 12th house of disgraces and sorrow, because Saturn is conjunct the Lot of death (17°55') Mars is also square to it.
Mars is square Venus which debilitated in fall, acting as an infortune, on the cusp of the bad 6th house of sickness.
Mars and Jupiter are opposing the Part of Fortune in the 8th house .
Actually there is a grand cross involving all the four infortunate houses not beholding the first one, i.e. 2nd, 6th, 8th, 12th, in a natal birth chart it would be a bit scary.

Moon is cadent and in detriment , only trine to Venus which is in bad condition, in fall in the 6th.

Regiomontanus houses
Mars as above except for not being anymore the lord of the 8th.
Mars is conjunct Jupiter which is now the very Lord of the 8th and dispositor of the lot of fortune in the 8th and dispositor of Saturn and the Lot of Death in the 12th.

There are very few positive aspects in this chart and the answer cannot be positive, i'm really sorry, and I hope that I'm wrong all the way trough, I had better not looking at this post...

Hoping for the best for the girl
Saturnello

Saturnello wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:05 pm Hi Ninneveh,
the chart is quite complicated and unfortunately not positive, at least in my judgment, do not take it as coming from the Bible, it's just astrology.
I start choosing a different house for the missing girl.
She is not the 5th house for sure (not your child) but not the seven house either.
We have to consider only your present relationship with this girl , the very brief relation of 15 years ago in my opinion is not enough to give her the status of partner but that said we cannot even give her the generic status of "third person".
I may be wrong, but It is my opinion that when treating of missing persons of which we do not know the whereabouts and that have no direct relation with us we should use the 1st house, his Lord and the moon to signify that person.
This is very clear in William Lilly book at page 151 "if a question is demanded of one absent in a general way and the querent has no relation to the party; then the first house, the lord of that house and the moon shall signify the absent party"
Again at page 156 " in the figure above let us admit the question to have been demanded for one absent : the Ascendant etc.etc.....and the moon are significator of the absent party"

Hello Saturnello,

I chose the 5th house for her because (aside from children) it rules over romances and romantic affairs, which I admit is a more modernist approach, but one that I felt intuitively fit the situation. I did not think it appropriate to take her to be the 7th house due to us never officially being partners, hence the 5th house in my opinion. However, I greatly respect and value your approach in taking H1 and L1 and the Moon as well as your judgement and am open to all insights and techniques. Your judgement is very dark indeed and aligns with my own judgement based on my approach from the 5th, that this judgment is very negative and that she is at the very least in a desperate and deeply difficult situation. I feel the sense of inescapable destiny in this particular chart.