Georgius wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:38 am Every second of the day people die. We do not want to think of this that often but that’s a fact we have to live with. So death has to be taken into account. In my opinion astrology has the duty to deal with it. I feel great responsibility in relation to astrological questions about death. In spite of being something of general human perception death has to do with very strong emotions. In your case you are thinking of death already, you are a astrologer yourself and so you know we all can err even if astrology itself can not. Furthermore you use a pseudonym so your person is largely protected.

The lord of the hour was Mars which is L1 so the chart is valid. A testimony that the questioner is in touch with celestial proceedings and one is allowed to delineate it.

Now one of the things I learned about horary is that choosing significators is very important and not that easy one might think.

Ninneveh wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:41 amA few days ago I had an intense desire to see how she was doing.

I consider this statement as very important for me. Can you report on which day this desire arose? It will help me to choose the right significator for her.

My first actual attempt to contact her by phone text was last Tuesday (August 13), the desire may have arose a day or two prior, but I cannot say for sure. It could have all just happened on Tuesday. The last thing on my mind was keeping track of this.

Ouranos wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:25 am You are right about the midpoint AS=SU/NE
It falls at 11 Gem 36
In the 45 Wheel, the ASC=ME/Chiron falls at 25Gem23,which John Sandback relates to
"One's personality communicates healing energy to others. One's essential sense of being has a way of making others realize how deeply connected they are to everything."
You can read more on this midpoint here
https://midpointobservatory.blogspot.co ... hiron.html
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As for the trine between debilitated planets, they lack 'power to act'. I remember a horary case with a trine between MO in Scorpio, a woman (Fall) and MA in Cancer, the doctors (Fall). This was the case of a woman who fell into a coma after an accident and the doctors decided not to perform any surgery and leave her in her coma state and see how her condition would unfold.

Where does the AS part fit in, if the midpoint falls at 11 Gem?

As for the ASC=ME/Chiron, you hit the nail on the head. I have been sending love and healing energies to her, wherever she may be, whatever state she may be in, hoping it will help her these last few days.

Thank you for explaining how a trine may react in such a situation, I've always wondered about this juxtaposition.

Where does the AS part fit in, if the midpoint falls at 11 Gem?

Nowhere. Forget about this.
The right midpoint is AS=ME/Chiron

Ouranos wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 8:23 pm

Where does the AS part fit in, if the midpoint falls at 11 Gem?

Nowhere. Forget about this.
The right midpoint is AS=ME/Chiron

Thank you, I see what you mean now. I was trying to figure out how to make the midpoint at 11 Gem relate to the Ascendant, but you've cleared it up.

Ouranos wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 10:54 am Here is what I am looking at for health and sickness,…

Thank you for sharing this collection!

Saturnello wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:05 pm…Saturn is conjunct the Lot of death (17°55')…

Can you tell me how you calculate the Lot of Death?

First: As mentioned before the chart is valid and can be delineated. The lord of the hour, Mars, is also the lord of the Asc.

Everything depends on the selection of the significator(s). I choose the ruler of the 1st (L1) for the questioner Ninneveh and the ruler of the 7th (L7) for the woman. There are several reasons for this: As mentioned before I think this strong desire after 15 years to know how she is now is very important. It shows that there is still a kind of relationship to the woman and in my opinion she is not some strange person to Ninneveh. In his very first sentence of his first posting in this thread the questioner mentions this relationship. So I reject the first house for the woman and leave it to Ninneveh who has a strong part in this horary. Another testimony is that there was a conjunction between Mars and Jupiter in the last days when this desire arose. Mars is the significator for Ninneveh and Jupiter is the radical L8, death. Obviously it was no physical contact between Ninneveh and dead but a subtle or ethereal. [It’s not easy for me to find the fitting words being no native speaker. So please take my writings not too literally.] Mars is not the significator or even subsignificator (Scorpio enclosed in the 7th house) for the former girlfriend but for Ninneveh. This is not unambigous as the whole chart in my opinion.

There is no classic planet angular. The chart is not very clear. Many aspects are applying but the question is if she is already dead and so only separating aspects are the important ones concerning this topic. Mercury was separating from Venus but this is the only sign of death which I can allow. In my opinion this is not enough to be certain. The aspects to the malefics and to L8 are to happen only.

If she is dead it cannot be seen. Mercury, her L8, is combusted. If there are no news until the 23rd (Venus squares Mars in real time), maybe this can change within approx. 8.5 weeks. (There are about 8 1/2 degrees for Venus to meet Mars per square.) News about her state will come in possibly .

Georgius wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 7:15 am
If she is dead it cannot be seen. Mercury, her L8, is combusted. If there are no news until the 23rd (Venus squares Mars in real time), maybe this can change within approx. 8.5 weeks. (There are about 8 1/2 degrees for Venus to meet Mars per square.) News about here state will come in possibly .

The above analysis and the conclusion made by Georgius look pretty reasonable to me.

I would just like to add that the 12th part of the ascendant ("loss or theft or some such indication" - Hephaistio on thought interpretation) is in Aquarius, the 11th sign from the ascendant, ruled by Saturn. Saturn as ruler of the 11th might indicate a friend from the past, some kind of an Ex. It is also the exaltation ruler of the 7th. It is Rx. and weak in the 12th, its house of joy. Venus, lady of the 7th, is stronger (although in her sign of fall she is dignified in her triplicity and face) She is on the cusp of the 6th, 12th from 7th. All this might suggest the woman can't be reached at the moment because she is in a place of the 12th house kind.

A place of seclusion like hospital, confinement, jail, prison, hiding place, restriction, fear, institution, retreat, rehab...or something similar...

"Lilly's most interesting comment in regards to the considerations comes in his discussion of the early ascendant, in which he says;

"...you may not venture judgment, unless the querent be very young, and his corporature, complexion and moles or scars of his body agree with the quality of the Sign ascending."
- Book 1, Chapter 19

All throughout Christian Astrology, Lilly compares the physical appearances of his querents to the characteristics of the signs on the ascendant. He even makes note to discover marks or scars they had. To Lilly, this appears to be another way to fulfill the second condition of Bonatti's philosophy. The astrologer can be sure the celestial bodies have imprinted themselves on the question and taken it up if the ascendant properly describes the querent's body, just like a natal ascendant would describe the body of its native."
https://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/radicality
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It appears that you can use your own judgment like Lilly did.
How would you describe this woman?
Does she look more like
- Aries with Mars in Gemini conjunct Jupiter - talkative, curious, adventurous, outgoing or
- Libra with Venus in Virgo - shy, melancholic, meticulous about her appearance, modest.

Hi Georgius,
the lot of Death is the one given by Frawley / A.Louis : H1 + H8 - Moon, it is also known as the part of disaster, disgrace etc. etc. but the meaning remains the same.
There are others but this the one that gave me better results so far.

For the house to represent the missing person I do stick on the choice of the 1st one, you like it or not, sorry...
I did substantiate enough my choice and I do not need to repeat myself, any way the almost totality of the astrologer doing forensic astrology dealing with missing persons are using the 1st house, even when asked by spouse, relatives, parents, friends etc. etc.
They use the time and location when the missing person was "last seen" but in this case we do not have it so we have to use another time and place.
On this forum there was an interesting discussion about the house of missing person and Ouranos has given a brief introduction to a pod-cast between Chris Brennen and Levente Laslo on this subject, I'm sure everybody has read it in June, but nobody talks here about it.

viewtopic.php?t=12563

It was interesting because i remember having read that writing of Ben Dykes or the book itself but cannot recall where (I'm far from home since a long time now) the most important part of that post for me is where they talk about the inception charts as the origins of horary and give that 3 possibilities on choosing the time and place in inception charts .

We do not have the moment the girl decided to disappear nor when she was last seen and we are forced to use the time the querent has posed the question, in practice it remains a birth (inception) chart to be read as an horary chart, as usual.

I may be wrong but so far nobody has given me enough evidence to make me change opinion, but still hoping for the best for this girl, I wouldn't care to be wrong.

Saturnello wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 5:22 pm
For the house to represent the missing person I do stick on the choice of the 1st one, you like it or not, sorry...
I did substantiate enough my choice and I do not need to repeat myself, any way the almost totality of the astrologer doing forensic astrology dealing with missing persons are using the 1st house, even when asked by spouse, relatives, parents, friends etc. etc.

I beg to differ. Here are some quotes from Christian Astrology II :

p. 151
"Whether one absent be dead or alive.
If a Question be demanded of one absent in a general way, and the querent hath no relation to
the party; then the first House, the Lord of that House and the :» shall signify the absent party;
the Lord of the eighth house or Planet posited in the house or within five degrees of the Cusp
of the 8th House shall show his death or its quality."

p. 189
Of a Brother that is absent.
The Ascendant and his Lord are the Querent's Significator, the Cusp of the third house shall be
the Ascendant of the Brother that is absent, the fourth the absent's house of Substance, and so
in order. "

In the first quote, the 1st house and its ruler signify the absent party only if s/he has no relation to the querent (a total stranger).
The second quote shows how when the absent party is known to the querent and is related to him/her in some way, the 1st house and its ruler signify the querent, while the appropraite house and ruler signify the absent party.

In this case, the absent party is known to the querent, as a friend or partner or acquaintance from the past, so the 11th or 7th houses and their rulers would signify her.

Deborah Houlding extracted from Al Biruni's text The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, (written at Ghaznah, 1029 AD), following the R. Ramsay Wright translation (1934)
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/alparts.html

Part of Death SA +Cusp 8th - MO
Part of Disease AS + MA - SA (also comes from Hermes)

So I am using Al-Biruni's parts, easily found in Planetdance >Horoscope>Medieval>Al Biruni Parts
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As for which house rules the absent person and please, do not take this as something cast in stone, here is my humble view. And this also applies to what we call 'strictures against judgment'.

Horary astrology goes back to ancient Babylonian and Chaldean astrologers where personal horoscope were not the norm. It was mostly for the king, the ruler of the country, wars, crops and weather conditions. It became more personal during the Medieval and Renaissance period.
Ancient astrologers, because of their knowledge were often tested by political and religious authorities. So it almost became normal for astrologers to protect themselves with a shield of 'strictures' to validate if the question was fit to be read. At the same time, it they saw Saturn in the 7th, it was an indication that their judgment might falter or be received with suspicion by whomever king or religious figure was asking the question.

My approach is to look at the whole chart and see if the question asked is relevant in some way.
For example, if you find the ruler of the 1st in the 6th for someone asking about his cat, you know that the chart is fit to be read. If you find someone asking about a marriage and there is no relationship between the 1st and 7th, you may question the validity of the question.

Same applies for assigning a house to an absent person. Sometimes, you have to dig deeper to find the relationship in the chart.
In the example chart we have here, we have some indications that the person was a "a girl who I had a short fling with (about a months time) about 15 years ago. She would be 36 years old today. I was in the process of moving away to a different city at the time so it didn't evolve into a relationship between us. I have thought about her on and off through the years, but for one reason or another I didn't keep in contact with her".
So before going into the strictures or assigning a house,
Does Venus Mutable and Cadent describes the girl better than Mars in Gemini?
Does Mars in Gemini relates better to someone in the process of moving away to a different city?
I am not saying that the 1st or the 7th goes to one side or the other but simply 'use your judgment' in assigning a house, read the chart. See if the physical description relates more to one side or the other, like Lilly who was looking for physical scars on the body to validate his choice.
Keep an open mind, trust yourself and validate what you see.