Astrowanderer wrote:

Interestingly, I am not sure that the sidereal zodiac could be used with Addey's harmonics, because the fundamental tone is set by the beginning of the the tropical zodiac, the nodal point we describe as the vernal equinox. There is no such node in the sidereal zodiac at the beginning of sidereal Aries, the reference point being set by a fiducial star. The tropical nodal point 00 Aries 00 is created at/by the intersection of two astronomical planes, the ecliptic and the celestial equator and all waves are generated from this point in Addey's theory.

Astrowanderer, I had never considered the digital-analog concepts in relation to astrology. I have to think more about that! At one time I was a big fan of John Addey. Back in 2004 I wrote an article discussing wave theory and the zodiacs. Here is an excerpt, and a link to the article if you are interested:

The Question of Phase
If the astrological zodiac is indeed a construct based on harmonics, the question still facing us is, “Do sign waves correlate with the solstices and equinoxes, or do they flow in relation to one or more critical stars? As Addey states:

The great zodiac problem is: What determines the phase? How are we to decide at what points in the circle the maximum effect occurs in any particular case?” (Addey, p. 176)

“The important issue is not one of the zodiac as such, but of the significant focus or foci in the ecliptic from which effects, as represented by the harmonics of the circle, are generated.” (Addey, p. 197)

The Tropical zodiac has a precise starting point at the northern hemisphere spring and southern hemisphere fall equinox. But what about the sidereal zodiac? A zodiac requires a fiducial point on the circle from which measurements are made. Various measurements from specific stars were used in Mesopotamia to designate the initial points of zodiac signs. However, these stars were not exactly 30 degrees and zero minutes from each other, which leaves us with a zodiac with hazy sign boundaries.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/aharmsign.htm
"Signs of the Zodiac: What are they?"

i have to chime in here about the ''starting point'' concept..

fact is any planets 40 degrees away from one another will show up in a 9th harmonic chart and the ''starting point'' matters not... you can do extensions of this too - 40, 80., 160 - they will also show up as conjunctions or oppositions in a 9th harmonic chart regardless the ''starting point''... cheers james

Very true James!
It is an analysis of the Novile series (1/9 of the circle) showing the angle of 40 degrees, the binovile 80 degrees, the trinovile or trine 120 degrees and the quadrunovile 160 degrees.
It is an Harmonic of the trine. (3/9 = 120 degrees), the most stable figure.
And we must accept the various representations and views of the 360 degrees circle whatever starting point we take.
"Many students in astrology fight shy of using these charts (id est. Harmonics) Note: (yet it can be applied to a Sidereal view of a chart), perhaps seeing them as yet another confusing circle to be examined, or avoid them on the grounds that they 'prefer to stick to the natal chart'. A sound plan indeed; one should never duck confronting this particular map as it's the only one we've got!
... It is not a substitute for the natal chart, it is not an alternative to the natal chart, neither is it separate from the natal chart. It is the natal chart; the natal chart laid out in a way which makes certain aspects immediately recognizable and their interpretation relatively simple. The first point that perhaps needs to be grasped here is that there is not a specific manner in which charts have to be laid out. There is only one convention, and that convention has not only shifted many times over the centuries, it also fulfils the differing visual needs of various societies."
Charles Harvey, Michael Harding, 'Working with Astrology', p. 173

thanks ouranos.. yes - i agree... something i have learned in all my reading is that these charts get interpreted differently, depending on who is doing the interpreting.. also is breaks down along western, verses indian approaches more generally... and finally - yes, the trine - 120 is a 3/9th aspect!! thanks..

added note - it is funny you mention the book 'working with astrology' as i was just reviewing another book last night - 'mundane astrology' with one of the same authors to both books being charles harvey... the reason i pulled it up as i happened to notice that the sun-moon opposition in kamala harris's chart happens to land directly on the ascendant-midheaven midpoint... i recalled reading about the importance of this midpoint in one of these books and wanted to re-read it in light of seeing how this full moon in kamala's chart lands right on this midpoint.. i didn't find much in the 'mundane astrology' book on this, but i think you have unintentionally reminded me of the book where it is discussed more at length!! so, thanks for that.. i just pulled it up and am going to take a closer look at it now! thanks..

see page 79, and 86/87 for references of the importance of this particular midpoint - as/mid..

Hi everyone - this is a fascinating thread. Thanks for everyone's contributions. The alignment of SO/MO=AS/MC is generally considered to be highly auspicious. In Harris's case, the midpoints SA/NN and NN/MC are also brought into play. The whole combination gives the midpoint tree: SO/MO=AS/MC=SA/NN=NN/MC.

Reinhold Ebertin has a downer on Saturn, and his Combination of Stellar Influence's description of SA/NN is quite pessimistic. The nodal axis, in Ebertin's view, is about partnerships and associations in the widest sense, so Saturn with the nodal axis tends towards inhibitions in the company of others, or frustrations and disagreements in business relationships or associations more generally.

The combination of the nodal axis with MC suggests, in Harris's case, that her public standing is tied closely to her ability to build and maintain relationships with others. The success of these ventures seems to be the gateway to the destiny suggested by the alignment of SO/MO with AS/MC for Harris.

Ref. Western 9th harmonic synastry. I am not sure I totally agree with Hamblin's view that the ninth harmonic is about joy, pleasure and peace.

Numerologically, 9 is the final number, bringing the sequence beginning with the monad to an end before a new cycle begins. My sense is that the number 9 describes completeness and wholeness. It is a 'ring pass-not', a concept in Theosophy, describing the boundary between states of consciousness, between matter and spirit. In this case, ninth harmonic synastry might describe how two individuals 'complete' one another or create a new 'whole' together, and transcend themselves in the presence of one another. This would tie in with the Vedic view of the Navamsha chart being one related to partnership and marriage.

https://www.llewellyn.com/encyclopedia/ ... g-Pass-Not

In this case, with Harris and Trump:

Harris MC cnj Trump Saturn: any status accorded Harris frustrates Trump and requires him to respond in a Saturnian way. Of course this is quite inimical to Trump as he is a far more Jupiterian character than Saturnian. Harris's status seems require Trump to act in ways that are quite antithetical to his instincts and to accept responsibility for his actions.

Harris Neptune cnj Trump Mars: in this scenario, Harris diffuses Trump's modus operandi, which is to act the strong man role. Very little he does seems to rattle Harris and she can let his 'trash talk' wash over her. This combination might also suggest that Harris is able to elevate herself above Trump's attempts to bully and belittle her (and perhaps women in general).

Harris Mars cnj Trump Moon: when required Harris can 'hit him where it hurts' - his public image. This in turn will upset Trump emotionally and destabilise his image of himself in relation to his public. I think it would be unwise of Harris to push this line of attack with Trump too far as it may build 'underdog' sympathy for Trump among the voting population.

Harris Uranus cnj Trump Sun: Harris destabilises Trump's self image and sense of identity. Harris's presence, and the difference she represents, potentially disrupt Trump's view of himself, and ultimately his view of how the world works.

Interestingly, Harris's Sun/Moon opposition clearly shows the midpoints described above in the 9H. Looking closely at the 9H bi-wheel above shows VE=SO/MO=AS/MC=SA/NN=NN/MC. Venus comes into play by virtue of its very precise novile to Harris's Sun in the natal chart. In my view, this will go a long way to ameliorating any potential negativity coming from Saturn. However, with Saturn so powerful in Harris's natal chart - elevated, at the MC and in dignity, I doubt that Saturn is a planet that troubles her much. It is likely to give her gravitas, an air of purpose and professionalism.

To note, in the bi-wheel, Trump's Uranus is square Harris's Sun-Moon opposition in the 9H bi-wheel. One might argue that on this basis, the 'disrupter' that is Trump has the better of her. However, the integrity of the Harris's alignment suggests to me that he - as the 'disrupter in chief' - might have met his match.

Hi there - have I missed something? I've just looked more closely at the 9H bi-wheel. Kamala Harris seems to have two 9H MCs - one in Cancer, and one in Aquarius? The correct one is the one in Cancer I believe. I've re-read the thread and can't find any reference to this. Sorry if I've misunderstood something.

I think the point identified as 1. in the bi-wheel is the 9H tenth equal house cusp from the 9H ascendant. This would be the 9H nonagesimal?

Ed

Hi there - have I missed something? I've just looked more closely at the 9H bi-wheel. Kamala Harris seems to have two 9H MCs - one in Cancer, and one in Aquarius? The correct one is the one in Cancer I believe. I've re-read the thread and can't find any reference to this. Sorry if I've misunderstood something.

The full view of the 9th Harmonic relationship should be
A natal vs B natal (3 degree orb)
A natal vs B 9thH (conjunction 9 degree orb)
A 9thH vs B natal (conjunction 9 degree orb)
A 9thH vs B 9thH (conjunction 9 degree orb)
which I have blended but I have shown only the 9thH chart.
A 9 degree orb in the 9thH = 1 degree orb in the 360 circle. The closer the better.
Simple and to the point.
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The SU/MO midpoint can be viewed as a midpoint of marriage and relationship, like a 7th House matter. (It is Ptolemy's only indication to look up in a marriage). With A/M, you can expect that the personal life (AS) with your partner will blend with your public life (MC).
Kamala's midpoint with SA/NN shows her dating history with former California politician, Willie Brown when she was 29 and he was 60. She described her relationship as 'an albatross hanging around her neck' and the bird is a symbol of protection, guidance and longevity.
Her current partner, Doug Emhoff came in her life with 2 children, another association of Saturn someone with strings attached.
But to some extent, the midpoints MO/MC and SU/MC at the Aries Point accentuates the public view but also we can say that she is 'married to the world'. Her relationships extends well above her family cell and she needs 'to be disconnected' SA/NN at times to rejuvenate herself as well as not being present because of her social obligations. She can easily say 'Well folks! I am gone. Bye!'
--------------------
What is important to mention here is that a transit to the natal and the 9thH degree will trigger something of that nature in the relationship.
And every month, at NM we have an opportunity to 'get married' to something, someone indicated by the planets or midpoints touched.
We are all guilty of being polygamist!
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As for the MA (Harris) MO (Trump) relationship, I have noticed that the MA person can force the MO person to reveal a more personal side of himself, making the MO feel vulnerable.
I can visualize this dialogue:
MA: Tell me the truth!
MO: I am going to tell you something I have never told to someone else before.

Aatrowanderer wrote:

Ref. Western 9th harmonic synastry. I am not sure I totally agree with Hamblin's view that the ninth harmonic is about joy, pleasure and peace.

Numerologically, 9 is the final number, bringing the sequence beginning with the monad to an end before a new cycle begins. My sense is that the number 9 describes completeness and wholeness.

I agree that Hamblin is off the mark on this one. Number nine has universally been considered the number of completion. It might be thought of as a final synthesis. In Indian astrology the navamsa chart has been said to complete the picture outlined in the natal chart.

I've just briefly checked my books that deal with number symbolism, and it's interesting that in The Occult History of Numbers (1883-1984) W. Wynn Westcott calls number nine the Ennead! Perhaps this is where Donald Bradley found the term he used for his new discovery of the importance of the nine cyclic charts in the solar year which are now my "go to" predictive tool.

Hi Therese - thanks for the response. Yes - Hamblin, to me, doesn't seem well-versed in number symbolism, especially with the nine. The Vedic symbolism for the Navamsha seems much more appropriate. The Enneads as a predictive tool is interesting and I'm taking a look myself. I'm a tropical astrologer but I can't see why the technique wouldn't translate to the tropical framework.

Thanks for your input into this thread, it's been a stimulating discussion.

Ed

Astrowanderer, many thanks for your appreciation!

Because precession enters into tropical calculation, and the ennead charts are based on the precise degree, minute and second of the natal Sun, the ennead planets and angles will be different, especially as the person ages. I've been meaning to do a comparison study of tropical/sidereal ennead charts.

In various posts on Skyscript I've tried to point out the difference in transit positions to the natal chart in older people, highlighting the closer orbs in sidereal or precession corrected tropical positions of planets. This is the math that supports sidereal calculations over the tropical.

Hi Therese - I am working on a little script for Planetdance that will calculate the annual enneads. Here are Kamala's enneads for her forthcoming solar year. (This is as far as I've got with the code!)




These are calculated using the tropical zodiac. There is clearly an elemental emphasis (or absence) in these: fire, air and earth are emphasised for KH. An ennead will never occur in a water sign. The enneads in air reinforce the Sun/Saturn/Ascendant grand trine in the natal, which itself is reflected in the 9H chart, with Sun cnj. Saturn (6 deg orb). I've no doubt that Saturn is her friend!

Will take a more detailed look later.

I experimented with the sidereal for a considerable length of time, but in the end I felt the results I was getting were never as good as for charts etc calculated tropically. I also became slightly suspicious when Fagan and Firebrace used Firebrace's 10 year old grand-daughter as their primary case example (in the Primer). She had a serious accident at this age, which is of course of interest, but it means that any charts calculated for the book do not demonstrate the impact of age on planetary position using the sidereal zodiac.

I would have been more convinced if they had used the case of an elderly person and they could have demonstrated their methods over an extended period of time, for the reasons you have set out above. I'm sure they had their reasons for choosing this birthchart for their case study, but it didn't fill me with confidence that they could make a convincing case for their methods.

I finally gave up on the sidereal zodiac when looking at mundane charts for the terrible Haiti earthquake, referenced to the 1804 Haiti national chart in Campion's book. From memory there was a lunation that was very relevant to the event, and the tropical chart spoke very directly about the destructive moment. The sidereal version didn't really have anything to say to me at least.

Thanks. Ed

Astrowanderer, you can see that the sidereal dates and times are different. I tried to copy your list, but it wouldn't copy. You can compare these two dates with yours:

Solar Return for this year: 21 October 2024, 9:40:24 AM

Inauguration ennead: 8 January 2025, 9:34:47 AM

I don' trust the various Fagan/Firebrace/Bradley research cited by today's Fagan disciples. But that's another topic. I think it's best here to stay with ennead calculations. Thank you.

It might be interesting in another topic to explore why sidereal (or tropical for that matter) didn't "work" personally for different astrologers. Maybe we have finally reached the place where we can discuss these differences in a friendly and peaceful manner.