james_m wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:07 pm is this the astrological all star wrestling thread? lolol..

Is that another horary question?

Thanks for re-reading my post, I understand your point but it doesn't mean that I agree with you.
Over the years I built a methodology for the horary to which I like to stick, it doesn't avoid me to be wrong sometimes but it keeps it at the minimum..

For me (following J.Frawley) the 4th house has the meaning of the end of things only when a third person, with the authority and power to decide, gives his final word and say "case closed", i.e. the judge in a trial saying to the defendant that he/her has been found guilty or not guilty, or the doctor after a medical exam saying to the patient that he/she has been found healthy or sick.
If you like to give to this house the meaning of " the grave" that is up to you and it doesn't disturb me at all, but I read my chart in my own way not yours. sorry.

The 12th part of the Asc is at 9* of Aquarius (if you do not know how to calculate it go to Astroseek where they have also this tool) and It is in the 11th only if you use whole sign houses, I do not understand why you are bringing in this comment to support your point given that I'm using either Placidus or Regiomontanus for this chart.

I don't know your position on the following but personally I don't like to add apples to oranges, not in the same chart, I'm not using whole sign domification, not in horary not in natal, sorry but I go with Deb on the use of quadrant domification, so I'm not the least interested in the meaning of the 12th part in the 11th house.

Anyway, I think that everyone has the right to use its preferred technique, whichever it is, and that's it.

About the use of 12th parts and quadrant domification If you go to the link here below

https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2024/05 ... in-horary/

you will find the first article of A.Louis about the 12th part of the Asc (on a question about Fear, Job, Money and Bank) that many years ago has attracted my attention and convinced me to read more and buy " The search of the heart" where the 12th parts are treated quite extensively.
I like to read A.Louis a lot (even because we have the same age, being born the same year), especially for his very eclectic way to treat astrology.
In this chart Antony Louis uses Regiomontanus houses as per tradition and he makes a very simplified use of the 12th part of the ASC and gets immediately to the point.
I may be too simplistic but I also think that the 12th part of the Asc must give me indications useful for confirming the validity of the chart, not making it more complicated.

Just to end the debate, at least from my side (sorry folks....) I give here a link to a very interesting horary of the astrologer and writer Christopher Warnock, specialized in medieval (Persian Arabic) and Renaissance astrology.

https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mi ... ample.html

this case is very interesting and intriguing because:
1) it is about a querent asking for the whereabouts and the situation of a missing person (like Ninneveh)
2) the missing person was not an unknown person but an acquaintance of the querent (well known to the querent like Ninneveh's case)
3) the querent was familiar with the Horary method, and kept time and location of the moment he asked himself the question
4) the astrologer used time and location given to him by the querent and erected a chart using Regiomontanus.
5) the astrologer gave the missing person the first house, not the third, not the 5th, the 7th or the 11th, or others....

I may suggest you to write to the author asking him to correct all the mistakes in his article by giving the right house (you choose) to the missing person, and who knows, he may be even more accommodating than me and comply with your request.

Now, as far I'm concerned this the end of my presence on this thread, I will just wait for Ninneveh to bring just and only the news, from a reliable source, about the actual situation of the girl, if she is alive and healthy or sick or, hope not, dead as feared.
Facts , not just personal opinions could bring me here again.
It looks that the first time limit you have set on your post for the news to arrive has already expired, it was the 23 of august if I'm not wrong, but even so I'm still patiently waiting (and hoping for an happy ending for the girl) until the second time limit you have set arrives, 8 and half weeks if I remember correctly. I just hope that nobody here is going to propose to extend this time limit to 8 and half years simply because I'm old and cannot guarantee to be still around so far in the future

thank you and see you on an other thread
blessings!

Concerning the 12th part of the ascendant, I misunderstood the concept inspite of having red ”The Search of the Heart”. I do not use whole sign houses I just got it wrong. Saturnellos link to Antony Louis led me to a post that explains it quite clearly: Here it is. So now I understand that the sign of the Asc is spread all over the entire zodiac.

Saturnello wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2024 4:30 pm The 12th part of the Asc is at 9* of Aquarius…

But this I cannot follow. Maybe I am wrong again, but if I take the given Asc on 25°29' Aries then 25° times 12 make 10 signs and 29' times 12 make almost 6° (5° 48'). So the 12th part of the Asc is at 5°48' in Aquarius imho. Anyway it is in the 10th house as Saturnello wrote, the 4th after the 7th.

Saturnello wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2024 4:30 pm Just to end the debate, at least from my side (sorry folks....) I give here a link to a very interesting horary of the astrologer and writer Christopher Warnock, specialized in medieval (Persian Arabic) and Renaissance astrology.

https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mi ... ample.html

I do not want to argue so all that I am saying is look at the chart with the lord of the 7th as significator for the quesited. Then the chart is radical and equal clear as with taking L1 if not clearer (e.g. concerning the lord of the hour).

I'm here again as I don't like these errors in my posts (but cannot do anything about the grammatical errors, sorry readers) so I have no problems to say you are right on the degree of the 12th part (thanks for pointing it out) I wrote the post in a rush trusting my memory as I tend to avoid switching every time from one software to another (I have different softwares for different purposes and dodekatemoria are on Valens software in another PC) and I took the number upside down, 9 instead of 6, , but this only means that my short term memory is not anymore as good as it used to be.
I knew the 12th part is in the 10th and still there it is, also my way to read it is always the same, sorry pal...

Regarding the article of Warlock I suggest you to read it again because it seems to me that you are missing (pun not intended) the main point, i.e. Venus (representing the missing person) is a benefic in her own sign and has just separated from an afflicted malefic Mars (which signifies the violent death) and you cannot read the other way around.
For the radicality of the chart, here the link to the article of Deb https://skyscript.co.uk/hour_agreement.pdf
Deb clarifies some discrepancies between W.Lilly and Bonatti on the radicality of charts.
In the chart Libra is rising and Mars is the hour ruler, Venus and Mars are both in Taurus and Deb says :

According to Bonatti a chart is radical when:
1) Hour-ruler is the ascendant ruler:
2)Hour- ruler and asc-ruler are in the same triplicity:
3)Hour-ruler and ascendant are of the same triplicity:
4)Hour-ruler has same humoral nature as the ascendant:

Because Mars and Venus are in the same triplicity the chart should be read as radical and there is no need to look any further.
Many astrologers do not know or follow this understanding by Deb of these two authors but I do and that's enough for me.

But again, if you like more your interpretation and still think the author was wrong please write to him, not to me, sorry but I can't help you on this matter.

To be completely clear, tomorrow I'll be leaving for my vacation, for this reason but mainly because we have left no stones unturned on this subject and are now only repeating ourselves I will post on this subject only if there are really news to discuss about. thank you in advance for understanding the situation.

stay well

may you just tell me how you can find Venus in the 5th while she is sitting on the cusp of the 6th (the most powerful part of the house) and thus showing not a fallen lover but a very very sick person?

I simply was not wearing my glasses and the opposition line blended in with the house line. It would depend on the house system used though (I'm actually a new fan of Morinus) but here it would be 6th. She is disposited by a planet in the 5th though. I don't think it changes the interpretation much either way for me in this case. They are both disposited by Mercury combust and retro in the 5th, pretty much in most house systems you might use, describing a mutually difficult disconnect in communication and end to their romantic relationship.

How do you know that they are very sick physically? They are clearly afflicted but it could just as easily be of the mind/spirit as the body. In any case, the question was of death and not illness. I think the history of mental illness is probably more telling than anything else, especially given we are seeing Venus opp Saturn. What could be more telling than that for feelings of loss, rejection, loneliness, isolation, etc, especially w/ Saturn in the 12th of all places.

Saturnello wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:52 pm Regarding the article of Warlock[…]

My. point is that this example cannot prove your perspective for several matters.

Saturnello wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:52 pm For the radicality of the chart, here the link to the article of Deb https://skyscript.co.uk/hour_agreement.pdf

Thank you, I will read it.

For radicality I follow Sue Ward respectively William Lilly.

***

Have a nice vacation and thank you for the discussion!

Georgius wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:22 am For radicality I follow Sue Ward respectively William Lilly.

To clarify this (“Sue Ward’s Traditional Horary Course”, 2021):

The chart is radical if the hour ruler

1. is the same as the ruler of the Asc
2. has the same nature
3. rules the triplicity of the Asc

This are Lilly’s main rules. There is harmony between the querent and the heavens.

Lilly judges a chart as well if the ruler of the hour

1. is angular
2. is the natural or accidental ruler of the matter asked about
3. is placed in the house of the quesited, or another significant house.

But this shows there are difficulties and you have to be careful when judging it.

Appreciate your comments Tanit!
We missed you.

For the records, Mercury comes out of combustion, Sept 4-5-6 in the morning sky.

Let's see if the Phenix will rise again.