There are no sub lords in the navamsa chart as subs only relate to the 27 lunar mansions, marked by the actual stars and constellations in the sky. Also I'm not sure about house lords either in the navamsa chart. Traditionally it's only planets within signs that matter. I suspect that these days there's a lot of new research and different opinions about the navamsa chart. I know there is controversy as to whether or not aspects should be considered in that chart.

thanks therese

i jumped the shark on the sublords in the navamsa... i do believe the sign positions and rulers are still relevant.. venus in scorpio rules the navamsa lagna and it is in contact with the malefic saturn.. i view that unfavourably...

i think you are right about this - "I suspect that these days there's a lot of new research and different opinions about the navamsa chart. "

James wrote:

Venus in Scorpio rules the navamsa lagna and it is in contact with the malefic Saturn.. i view that unfavourably...

James, although the navamsa chart looks like a natal chart with house rulers, etc., it really isn't. It's a chart that shows the subdivisions of natal signs (just like ennead timing refers back to the sub-divisions of lunar mansions). Like the ennead, navamsa planets always have to be referred back to the natal chart. Navamsa planets themselves can be moved to the natal chart (most especially planets near or on equal cusps) or the sign dispositors of navamsa planets can be considered as to their natal positions.

I agree that Venus with Saturn in Scorpio isn't a good combination. Those planets go to Kamala's 6th natal house, so there will be trouble there at some time, illness or any of those 6th house problems. Since Venus is natal 5th lord (Libra), these planets can well indicate that Kamala has no children. This is considered a very malefic state of affairs in Indian astrology.

I know you have one of C.S. Patel's books. It's good to review what he says about the navamsa as that divisional chart was his specialty.

thanks therese!

good suggestion! i did what you said, and reviewed the one book i have by c s patel - navamsa and nadi astrology.. i might have had another one - just navamsa astrology, but i believe i gave that to an astrologer friend of mine.. it is fairly intellectually demanding to read, but i do agree the venus-saturn conjunction in scorpio could reflect her lack of children seeing as it rules the 5th house in her natal chart..

thanks for the encouragement!
james

James, I've just been checking Patel's books. He has two of them, and they can be impossible to read!! He uses all these convoluted words. Are the Sanskrit?? Hindi?? I don't know. But there are some really good concepts in Patel's books such as placing the navamsa planets into the natal chart.

Oh, well, without C.S. Patel we would know a lot less about the navamsa. He does go back in time and has studied very old texts that aren't talked about in the common classic Indian texts we know about today. Many of his examples come from Deva Karalam that R. Santhanam translated

Hi Therese, I came across this discussion a bit late, so I've been quietly following along from the background. I wanted to take a moment to thank you for the incredible dedication and time you've put into explaining your method with the ennead concept. Your insights have really stood out to me, and I think this is one of the best and most thought-provoking topics I've seen on Skyscript in quite a while. Your clarity and depth of knowledge are truly appreciated.

Therese Hamilton wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:52 pm Venus with Saturn in Scorpio isn't a good combination. Those planets go to Kamala's 6th natal house, so there will be trouble there at some time, illness or any of those 6th house problems. Since Venus is natal 5th lord (Libra), these planets can well indicate that Kamala has no children. This is considered a very malefic state of affairs in Indian astrology.

Some natal observations from the Indian perspective.
This aligns with the indications in Kamala's natal chart regarding the likelihood of not having children. Kamala's chart features a Nisswa Yoga, formed by Mars in the 2nd house, which is associated with a lack of offspring. Additionally, the fallen Sun is positioned in the 5th house, suggesting few or no children. The presence of combust Mercury in the 5th house aspected by the Moon further reinforces the potential difficulties in having children, often pointing to the possibility of children through adoption or marriage instead. Jupiter (male children) is weak and also badly placed in the 12th house and fallen in navamsa.
(Some will undoubtedly note that Jupiter is also squared by Mars and Saturn.)

Kamala's Saptamsa, or D7, the varga that pertains to progeny, has natal 5th Lord and D7 5th lord Venus badly placed in the D7 8th house, afflicted by fallen D7 Mars from the D7 2nd house of family. Jupiter the natural significator for sons, is badly placed in the D7 6th with the malefic Sun. The aspect of the Moon hardly helps since from the D7 12th since it is casting a glance to its fallen sign of Scorpio.

AJ, thank you so much for your appreciation. These days I pass in and out of lucidity, but thought it was important to post something about how ennead charts are working out for prediction.

This aligns with the indications in Kamala's natal chart regarding the likelihood of not having children. Kamala's chart features a Nisswa Yoga, formed by Mars in the 2nd house, which is associated with a lack of offspring. Additionally, the fallen Sun is positioned in the 5th house, suggesting few or no children. The presence of combust Mercury in the 5th house aspected by the Moon further reinforces the potential difficulties in having children, often pointing to the possibility of children through adoption or marriage instead. Jupiter (male children) is weak and also badly placed in the 12th house and fallen in navamsa.

What an in depth and useful example of how standard astrological principles can provide factual information about a person’s life! All astrologers should take note.

Kamala's Saptamsa, or D7, the varga that pertains to progeny, has natal 5th Lord and D7 5th lord Venus badly placed in the D7 8th house, afflicted by fallen D7 Mars from the D7 2nd house of family. Jupiter the natural significator for sons, is badly placed in the D7 6th with the malefic Sun. The aspect of the Moon hardly helps since from the D7 12th since it is casting a glance to its fallen sign of Scorpio.

You are reading the D7 chart just like a natal chart! I hadn’t been looking at varga charts that way. What a useful lesson in reading India’s divisional charts! AJ, you have just introduced a lifetime of study. I’m sure James is taking note.

Kamala's chart features a Nisswa Yoga, formed by Mars in the 2nd house, which is associated with a lack of offspring.

Can you explain why this is so?

therese!

"the greater a man's talents, the greater his ability to lead astray'.... might be huxley who said that... at any rate, what you say about c s patel is very true!! he makes it difficult to follow in his use of long words from his sources which could be simplified as you note..

and yes, i have been taking notes from aj! and all the other sources on divisional charts from the indian perspective that i can find.. thanks for your post aj!

it has led me to conclude the way these charts are read is in a multi dimensional way.. i say this based on having read addey and hamblins work on harmonics which is different.. the fact is, there are probably a number of ways of interpreting these charts that don't fall into an orthodox mindset or approach... some may wish to adhere to that type of approach, but not me!! my main problem or challenge is i have way more questions then i have answers.. it is not a bad place to be, as it keeps me open to alternative ways of perceiving how these charts might actually work.. v p goel has some good books on the divisional charts and i have read most of them.. but because i am not steeped in indian astrology, i come away with different impressions.. if i was to stereotype, it would be that the emphasis on sign-houses is a more emphasized part of all of indian astrology as opposed to western astrology which might put more emphasis on aspects or different house systems not based on signs... when you put it all together and remain open minded about it all - one is left with many more questions then answers..

some music for the occasion, lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3cDxVGcOCQ

AJ wrote:

Kamala's Saptamsa, or D7, the varga that pertains to progeny, has natal 5th Lord and D7 5th lord Venus badly placed in the D7 8th house, afflicted by fallen D7 Mars from the D7 2nd house of family. Jupiter the natural significator for sons, is badly placed in the D7 6th with the malefic Sun. The aspect of the Moon hardly helps since from the D7 12th since it is casting a glance to its fallen sign of Scorpio.

AJ, I'm going back to your words here as I've been thinking about varga charts all day as I've had to be occupied with other work. I'm thinking that we have to be a little more restricted in interpretation, but I won't have time to check this out until Sunday. First, of course, I agree that natal 5th lord Venus in the 8th opposed by Mars in its fall perfectly fits a condition of being childless.

I wouldn't use the D7 5th house lord because the ascendant itself represents the topic of the chart (in this chart, children). It happens that in Kamala's D7 chart 5th lord Venus is also natal 5th lord. So we can't tell if the 5th house lord in D7 really applies.

Then suppose we take only the ascendant itself for children in D7, and applying aspects. We do have the square of Saturn which of course can describe being childless. And the nodes also involve the ascendant which could be telling.

Jupiter which represents children in the 6th. O.K. but we need more examples of Jupiter in D7 charts to see if this applies or is accidental. So my research brain is spinning. and I plan to look at a number of D7 charts for women who have several children and women who are childless. But....no time until Sunday at the earliest. With regrets as I think it's wonderful to have back and forth discussions here on Skyscript.