Therese Hamilton wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:07 pm Isn't this strange?? Two astrologers from the same astrological tradition and using many of the same predictive charts and methods are coming up with opposing predictions!!?? Ken Bowser for Trump while Jim Eshelman gives the most promising picture for Kamala Harris. Of course this duality happens in the tropical world as well.

Not so strange Therese, look at all the different predictions that come from weather models, economic models, etc. All has to do with how people interpret the symbolism in a particular context the kicker being, each gets to define the context in their own way or take a post-modern view and just claim there is no context, no symbols required.

therese

thanks for sharing the link to jim eshelmans thread on ''forecasting for the 2024 presidential election'..

it took me a while to read it and i have only read it to the point where he starts a new post on the 'vice presidential nominees'...

he is convinced in the belief that where a person is at the time of the solar return is much more relevant then the birth location solar return.. i don't share his viewpoint. he really gets bogged down in this too - twisting and turning over it constantly.. my take is they both have merit but that the birth location solar return is the most important and relevant.. i can't prove this, but it is my own experience on this..

i realize it is complicated, so regardless of his position on the weighing of the different approaches - solar return data, lunar return data, transit data and etc. etc. - he does come to a type of conclusion where you can kind of read his value system.. transit data seems less valued is my read on his thread.. i don't know that i share that view if it is indeed his view and it is muddied by his constant churning over which chart to use - natal or relocated!!!

it is made even more complicated by the fact he is looking at 2 dates - midnight or zero hour nov 6th 2024 and noon jan 20th 2025..

but this is the hardest thing to get a read on - his particular political bias.. he doesn't say and we are supposed to believe he is just relying on the astrology, but somehow i doubt this... i don't believe it is possible in fact..

i might respond to him on that thread.. i used to have a password for posting, but it has been 5 or more years since i did.. thanks again therese... i come away from it all - not convinced of much of anything, other then a simple approach might be the best approach... sorry for the delay in responding to you - i have been distracted by a few external factors..

James wrote:

He is convinced in the belief that where a person is at the time of the solar return is much more relevant then the birth location solar return.. i don't share his viewpoint. he really gets bogged down in this too - twisting and turning over it constantly.. my take is they both have merit but that the birth location solar return is the most important and relevant.. i can't prove this, but it is my own experience on this..

James, I agree with your comments. I've tested birth place and location returns, and the birth location always seems to be more relevant. And all of Jim's emphasis on exact location: I find that very confusing, and believe it can actually throw off predictions.

It is made even more complicated by the fact he is looking at 2 dates - midnight or zero hour nov 6th 2024 and noon jan 20th 2025..

It seems to me that the real chart that tells us who will be president is the inauguration chart itself. I don't use election date charts to predict a final election victory.

But this is the hardest thing to get a read on - his particular political bias.. he doesn't say and we are supposed to believe he is just relying on the astrology, but somehow i doubt this... i don't believe it is possible in fact..

I don't think it's possible as well! I know that personally I'm very biased about the outcome of the coming election. But there is an important difference in the predictitons of Kenneth Bowser and Jim Eshelman. Ken is very sure of his prediction that Donal Trump will win the election whereas Jim has all kinds of ifs and buts, but does faver Kamala Harris. I'm pretty sure that Ken isn't in favor of Trump winning, so he would be going against his personal bias,

I might respond to him on that thread.. i used to have a password for posting, but it has been 5 or more years since i did..

I used to post on Jim's site, but I was very unpopular and disliked as I tended to point out their mis-information, especially in historical areas, and I didn't accept Jim's word as gospel truth. I don't remember if I left or was eliminated.

thanks again therese... i come away from it all - not convinced of much of anything, other then a simple approach might be the best approach... sorry for the delay in responding to you - i have been distracted by a few external factors..

I appreciate your responses, James, as I figure I'm "over the hill" and could check out at any time. I take the simple approach myself. I stay with transits which are reflected in the solar return chart and enneads/9th harmonic chart. I want to see the mathematical positions of planets as they are actually in the sky and ephemeris. I was never comfortable with directions and symbolic progressions.

therese

thanks for your additional thoughts here.. the idea of the inauguration chart being more important then the election chart is an interesting one.. i haven't given this any thought.. i have always felt the election date was the most important, but come around to seeing the importance of the inauguration date too and mostly think they are both important dates... but maybe you are right!!

the 2025 inauguration chart has a lot of challenges to it as i see it.. the sidereal chart for this time and date is shown below..



sun-pluto conjunction in proximity to the midheaven axis, while mars is conjunct the i.c. retro in the first degree of cancer... mars rules the 1/8 houses.. the sun-pluto is 45 to saturn.. these planets - pluto - saturn and mars - are all challenging energies to have with the sun - a symbol for the 'new leader' and suggests war or the challenges associated with war.. the sun and moon are in a type of mundane square as well.. sometimes challenging charts can be very productive!! uranus and jupiter rising bodes more favourably.. i am not sure what neptune on the lunar axis implies - perhaps more confusion, idealism or a general neptune vibe in all of this - i am not sure.. perhaps a neptunian fog hangs over the inauguration date?? i am prone to thinking manipulation and hanky panky go on all the time, so don't mind me, lol!!

going back to jim eshelmans commentary, i take it the octile aspect is one of the 45 or 135 aspects? i hadn't heard someone refer to them in this way before - octile..

in reading between the lines, i suspect eshelman is a strong opponent of trump and favours harris.. here are the quotes that highlight this for me... these are points 4 - 6 under 'summation based on candidates charts' specific post..
"Both candidates' charts suggest conflict and severe conditions right around the inauguration. Trump especially has indications either of personal harm or inciting violence. Harris shows burdens and struggles.
Harris' difficult progressions enduring through Election Day are resolved before Inauguration Day.
Trump's SSR is hurtful to him and against winning, though it may support him inciting violence. - Harris' SSR (if she's in Washington for it) is a solid winner."

he mentions trump possibly 'inciting violence' and later - 'it may support him inciting violence'... he is characterizing trump a particular way, but he doesn't say the same with harris.... now just how subjective or objective that is - i believe he is biased towards harris based on him saying this.. it doesn't really matter in some respects... i maintain it is impossible for astrologers to maintain neutrality, in spite of our need to do just this!!

he reminds me a bit of myself in that i think it is easier to not make a prediction on this election! i was working towards one prior to biden dropping out of the race, but haven't found the necessary time or great desire to do the work here on this.. i do appreciate him sharing his astrological work and insights!!

I find it very intriguing that despite indicating Trump will crash and burn in the election Jim Eshelman states ''Despite anything else I've said, J.D. Vance's chart looks like he attains high honor on or soon after January 20.''

Thats interesting as Kenneth Bowser notes the prominence of JD Vance too in an analysis of his chart. He notes that that JD Vance has his chart angles close to the POTUSA chart based on the inauguration of George Washington on 30 April , 1789, around 12.45pm LMT.

I have also noted how connected JD Vance is to the tropical Aries ingress chart with his ASC degree on the actual MC degree. Trump's ASC is also close and Kamala Harris's Moon is trine the Aries ingress MC. The ingress chart is valid up to next spring.

Kenneth Bowser thinks Trump will be elected but will probably die or be physically incapable of holding office leaving JD Vance to become POTUS.

On the other hand If Eshelman is right that Harris wins how could that possibly be the case? Failed VP candidates usually end up in political oblivion.

One explanation might be we end up in a really crazy scenario where no candidate gets to 270 electoral college votes?
In which case the US would be in the weird land of a contingent election. On my prediction list I note the astrologer Cam White has suggested this as a potential outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYZOgSyh8Vw

Mark

I think the United States is like a vast testing ground. With the current domestic situation being unstable, let’s see what happens next.

I always feel that using a candidate’s personal natal chart to predict the presidency seems to be missing something.

Hi Mark,

Yes, I noted that Vance has very positive indications around Election day and the Inauguration date and felt Trump might win but that Vance may well be the next President; an idea which I have been trying to suppress with the notion I've read to many Le Carre and Ludlum novels; its disturbing to see others come to similar conclusions as Vance's chart looks like he has the makings of a true strong man or despot

This is what his chart looks like to me for the election day period. Came to the conclusion he might takeover as he has his directed MC moving from a trine of his radix Sun while his directed Sun is in a mitigated semi-sextile (conjunct) directed Mercury, ruler of his Ascendant to a trine of radix Uranus (favourable unexpected event) and at the same time his Lot of Exaltation being critical at 0 Pisces.

And he has very strong connections to the GOP chart Deb posted If the GOP thought they had their hands full with Trump they will have an even worse time controlling Vance; Trump's interest is himself and money, Vance looks to me as if he wants power. And I sincerely hope I am wrong about all of it.

mark

thanks for chiming in on eshelmans rambling viewpoint for this election.. i viewed his astro overview which therese shared here as very scrambled and inconclusive... i can't get past the idea that a lot of astrologers really don't want trump to win.. they try to fit the astrology to the preferred outcome....

jane

thanks for your additional commentary here..

wei

i think you are right about that and i agree with you.. the option of using national charts is a highway fraught with problems and roadblocks too....

James wrote:

thanks for chiming in on eshelmans rambling viewpoint for this election.. i viewed his astro overview which therese shared here as very scrambled and inconclusive... i can't get past the idea that a lot of astrologers really don't want trump to win.. they try to fit the astrology to the preferred outcome....

Yes he does seem like he is rather struggling to accept what the astrology tells him. Like you I also think his obsession over the location of a person at the time of their solar return is misplaced. I do look at at natal location and relocated if I have them but I tend to find the former more reliable. A classic example I recall was Boris Johnson, the former British Prime Minister who in his tropical solar return in 2019 for his birthplace (New York) the MC was exactly on his Moon his MC ruler. He became leader of the UK Conservative party a month later and went on to win the UK general election in December 2019. His relocated solar return for London was far less descriptive of all this.

I think political bias is a problem across the astrological community. Frankly, there are a few astrologers who are so left or right leaning it makes their ''prediction'' rather predictable!

This is one of the reasons I respect Ken Bowser's work so much as he follows the astrology whether it aligns with his politics or not. He predicted a Trump win in 2016 and has done so again in 2024 but on a personal level he leans towards the Democrats and is no fan of Trump. I dont know if his call is right this time or not. It seems a very murky time ahead. I can see a lot of contradictory indicators in the astrology. But I think Bowser's approach is admirable. I wish more astrologers could be as detached as he is.

Here are links to some resources giving Ken Bowser's view on the 2024 election and beyond:

1 His You Tube video from from January from 2024. Very comprehensive looking a wide variety of techniques. While Biden has obviously now withdrawn his analysis of Trump is still valid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYv-w8Rw6Ag

2 His July 2024 update on Kamala Harris https://www.westernsiderealastrology.co ... 24election

3 His August 2024 article on the astrological prospecys of J.D. Vance: https://www.westernsiderealastrology.co ... 4-election

4 The 2024 US solar return for 4th of July chart (using the Hazelrigg chart not Sibly) timed for 12.15pm LMT. https://www.westernsiderealastrology.co ... olarreturn

5 Donald Trump's chart in Spring 2025 https://www.westernsiderealastrology.co ... 025-charts

Mark

thanks so much for saying all that mark.. there was a reason i have enjoyed your astro posts over the years, although i won't go into the details now, but this post is another fine example of it, so thanks for saying all this, as it appears we see it in a very similar manner...

i did see all of what kenneth bowser has shared and was aware of that, and yes - fully concur with you too on all this as well.. the fact is, it is hard to be impartial and work with the astrology only and leave one's personal viewpoints out of it, but i think bowser is a fine example of someone who appears to do just that.. as memory serves he didn't seem as conclusive on trump with biden dropping out, but still that is what i got based on his overall read on kamala - it seems he still favours trump...

my prediction is the election is going to be very messy and the possibility of violence is strong.. i really hope i am wrong about that, but i believe bowser was saying something similar to this as well... just how that lingering mars - pluto opposition works out is hard to foresee... mars turns retro on december 6th approx 18 36 new york time... could be interesting to do a chart for the mars retro back to other charts from the candidates and etc..

thanks for the links.. hopefully others are curious to check them out..

James_m,

Like you, I also want to give up predicting the outcome of this U.S. election because it feels very difficult to predict accurately.

I just want to patiently wait and see how Pluto performs in the 4th house of 2024 Libra ingress chart.

Mark Cuban initiated a poll on X with 804,173 votes:

Who’s persona and character would you like to see young children grow up to have? (There were only two options)

The results were:

Kamala Harris: 31.1%
Donald Trump: 68.9%

I noticed in the comments that many people mentioned Kamala Harris achieved her position by relying on men, while they praised Donald Trump’s children for being well-mannered and successful.

From these comments, I’ve gained some understanding of American parents' values. Parents wish to protect their children and hope that their behavior meets societal expectations.

I remember seeing a video where Trump told a child that he hopes the child won’t smoke, do drugs, or drink excessively.

So why is the sale of cigarettes and alcohol still allowed? And in some areas, even marijuana is legalized. These substances seem quite harmful to the body. (I understand the tobacco and alcohol industries have high economic value; I’m just posing a rhetorical question here.)

Such a contradictory society.

Mark Cuban initiated a poll on X with 804,173 votes:

Who’s persona and character would you like to see young children grow up to have? (There were only two options)

The results were:

Kamala Harris: 31.1%
Donald Trump: 68.9%

A poll on X ?
Not reliable as far as I am concerned.
So many fake accounts, fictitious and artificially created can vote and make it look like a real survey.
As Ellen Glover says on builtin.com
"The rapid advancements in generative AI are propelling the AI influencer industry to new heights. With the ability to create unique text, images, music and (soon) entire videos in a matter of seconds, making a fully fledged digital persona has never been easier. And more are being added on social media every day."... to influence elections around the world among other things.