hi wei

thanks for sharing your perspective and the additional thoughts contained in your post.. i continue to believe the pluto return from the birth of the usa 1776 time frame), is very relevant here, but since it is hard to predict, i have given over to observation only on this astrological phenomenon that may take longer to understand..

i think human nature is contradictory sometimes, so for a society to behave in a contradictory manner would not be a surprise as opposed to being something inherent in what makes society - people..

in fairness to jim eshelman - he does good astrological work and is very dedicated to astrology.. for him to have difficulty making a clear prediction here is fair... i don't share his views on the importance of relocation astrology which i think he has taken to an extreme level, but that is my personal perspective.. i haven't much faith in ingress charts either fwiw... i came to this position prior to switching zodiacs too... at present i am an advocate for both zodiacs for different reasons, but i haven't gotten good results off ingress charts.. perhaps others have and kudos to them if they have..

Mark wrote:

This is one of the reasons I respect Ken Bowser's work so much as he follows the astrology whether it aligns with his politics or not. He predicted a Trump win in 2016 and has done so again in 2024 but on a personal level he leans towards the Democrats and is no fan of Trump.

James wrote:

The fact is, it is hard to be impartial and work with the astrology only and leave one's personal viewpoints out of it, but i think Bowser is a fine example of someone who appears to do just that..

You are both right. Ken Bowser is a topnotch political astrololger, very professional and is able to analyze elections and other matters without personal bias. His technical expertise is outstanding. His article on Vance was excellent. He stayed with factual information without going down the slippery slope of psychological analysis..

Mark wrote:

That's interesting as Kenneth Bowser notes the prominence of JD Vance too in an analysis of his chart. He notes that that JD Vance has his chart angles close to the POTUSA chart based on the inauguration of George Washington on 30 April , 1789, around 12.45pm LMT.

Kenneth Bowser thinks Trump will be elected but will probably die or be physically incapable of holding office leaving JD Vance to become POTUS.

I've just been looking at Vance's January 10 Ennead birth location chart which covers the inauguration date of January 20. This chart looks like a bright and shining Nova. A partile Jupiter/Moon conjunction, transiting Mercury conjunct natal Jupiter, Sun on the western horizon, Moon in the degree of the nadir, Rahu ( Moon's north node) at the MC. If Trump is elected and dies or becomes incapacitated, would Vance become president?

If the election happened to be three ways among Trump, Harris and Vance, I'd have to put my money on Vance. Although I've posted my belief that Kamala Harris would be our next president (admittedly a personal wish), after noting Vance's astrology I would be withholding an election prediction. In no way am I a political professional like Ken Bowser.

P.S. Ken Bowser was the main person who convinced me way back in the 1970s to change from the tropical to sidereal zodiac. But in my opinion Ken has one blind spot: He staunchly continues to believe that the Fagan/Allen ayanamsa is the only correct value. As far as I know he has never seriously researched another ayanamsa such as Krishnamurti. He may have looked briefly at Lahiri which (I agree) does not work for solar ingress charts, a popular predictive tool for Fagan school astrologers.

Hi Therese,

I was going through Abu Ma'shars' On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities, in Book III On Distributions and noticed Chapter III.9 entitled On the knowledge of the ninth-parts & their lords, & their directions & distribution, & the division of each one of them into thirds, & the knowledge of the lord of each division by its indication, & the one partnering with it by body or ray, according to what the people of India said" which I just gave a quick glance to in my earlier readings but looking at it again, it very much sounds like the description you gave for you Ennead chart. Do you happen to have the book, and if so, is he discussing the same technique you've been using? Just curious.

therese,

it is interesting how both bowser and eschelman are using fagan/bradley ayanamsa... the way i see it, and some will kill me for saying this - you see the same approach with many using placidus houses.. it is like a default position that many swear by, lol... maybe there is a definitive ayanamsa or house system, but i don't believe their is..

jane

i continue to believe abu mashar was picking up indian astrology techniques... it would be nice if therese read this same book we both have, but regardless - i continue to believe he is sharing what he learned from indian astrology..until someone proves this wrong, that is my belief at this point..

Hi Jane and James,

Yes, I have Abu Ma'shar's book, but the topic described isn't the same as the Ennead which is a straight division of nine time cycles within the solar year (40 days each) based on the degree, minute and second of the natal sun. The discussion in the book describes the navamsa division, that is nine equal divisions of each sign of the zodiac. Ennead = time cycle; Navamsa = division of signs of the zodiac. Also the topic of that section in the book is distribution through the bounds.

I'm not familiar with the divisions of the navamsas in the table on page 349 which simply gives a third of each navamsa to the sign rulers of each trigon of the zodiac (as Aries-Mars. Leo-Sun; Sagittarius-Jupiter). It might be a varga chart division which AJ would know about. Martin Gansten is the expert as to which methods and techniques originate in India or were brought into India from other sources.

I'm sorry, I'm on a bit of a time crunch for about two weeks now, so don't have time to dig into the book to follow the text. I've never used distributions in my work.

Edit Note: The Ennead is a 9th harmonic chart based on the natal Sun. Today's software can calculate the Ennead by simply asking for a 9th harmonic chart. But that chart has to be viewed on a bi-wheel with the natal chart on the inner wheel and cusps and planets of the Ennead on the outer wheel. It's very important to see which natal planets are linked to the Ennead angles--remembering that the Solar Return is the most important Ennead of the year. A true Ennead should be calculated in the sidereal zodiac or precession corrected tropical.

james_m wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:41 pm i continue to believe abu mashar was picking up indian astrology techniques... it would be nice if therese read this same book we both have, but regardless - i continue to believe he is sharing what he learned from indian astrology..until someone proves this wrong, that is my belief at this point..

lol...I think Abu Ma'shar, much like Valens, included every technique he picked up from any source. I believe the Fardars are Persian and I think everyone agrees the 9ths are from India regardless if he came across them directly or indirectly.

Therese Hamilton wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 10:52 pm Hi Jane and James,

Yes, I have Abu Ma'shar's book, but the topic described isn't the same as the Ennead which is a straight division of nine time cycles within the solar year (40 days each) based on the degree, minute and second of the natal sun. The discussion in the book describes the navamsa division, that is nine equal divisions of each sign of the zodiac. Ennead = time cycle; Navamsa = division of signs of the zodiac. Also the topic of that section in the book is distribution through the bounds.

Hi Therese, apologies for not remembering you had linked the Ennead directly to the natal Sun, that should have been a clue Abu Ma'shar was describing something related but not the same.

Therese Hamilton wrote: I'm sorry, I'm on a bit of a time crunch for about two weeks now, so don't have time to dig into the book to follow the text. I've never used distributions in my work.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

You're welcome, Jane. I'm just very pleased that we can have back-and-forth conversations here on Skyscript, though we work in different zodiacs and prefer different techniques and methods in our work. (My schedule has shifted again, so the time crunch is less for the time being.)

The Ennead is an extension of the solar return, and didn't exist for astrologers before Donald Bradley (Garth Allen) discovered it in the 20th century. The Ennead was first introduced to astrologers in the September 1973 issue of American Astrology as Jim Eshleman noted on his Solunars web site.

Bradley was so excited about his discovery that he said the Ennead was so (accurate for prediction) that astrologers could forget about the other cyclic charts they were using--quarter solars, lunars, etc. Unfortunately Bradley died soon after his discovery. Jim Eshleman has a chapter on Enneads in his Interpreting Solar Returns (1979) and sometimes looks at Enneads (generally re-located which I think is a mistake), but otherwise I may be the only astrologer investigating these charts.

the concept on the enneads is a development from fagan- bradley as i understand it.. they were into indian astrology and came up with a novel concept or technique.... i haven't worked with it, but because i have an interest in indian astrology i am curious... bottom line - it is based off a division of the circle by 9... whether one wants to consider the numerological meaning of 9, or just stick with the concepts embedded in indian astrologys use of the navamsa chart, or whatever - it revolves around this concept of 3x3 and threes and 9s in some sort of way...

the indian approach is different then western harmonic approach, but they are clearly connected... it is like 2 completely different starting points landing at a mining site and mining for gold, lol.... so these interesting fellows - fagan and bradley developed a new mining technique - enneads, lol... now who can figure out if they can get any gold from any of it?? therese is trying to be a modern day gold panner, and seeing as she is from california, maybe she comes from a long line of gold diggers, lol... i await with my scales to measure the gold and pay in gratitude to anyone who finds any!!

James wrote:

The concept on the enneads is a development from fagan- bradley as i understand it.. they were into indian astrology and came up with a novel concept or technique....

Fagan and Bradley were never "into" Indian astrology. They did look at the Lahiri ayanamsa in connection with solar ingress charts, and rejected that ayanamsa. That was a correct decision as Lahiri doesn't work for solar ingress charts. (The Krishnamurti value does work very well for solar ingress charts, better than the Fagan-Allen ayanamsa. But astrologers of the Fagan school have never looked into the Krishnamurti ayanamsa.)

The Ennead has nothing to do with Indian astrology and never existed in India. Bradley discovered the Ennead when he was investigating solar monthly charts (Sun every 30 degrees around the zodiac) and discovered that charts with the Sun in the trine position to natal Sun were statistically "surprisingly on the plus side." Bradley then extended the trine relationship to the Ennead, nine charts in each solar year. But he had no time to further research the Ennead, which I am doing now. The Ennead is a NEW discovery!

Yes, nine is important in Indian astrology because of the all-important navamsa, but also there are three sets of nine lunar mansions (nakshatras) with similar associated planets.

Gold digger...hummm. Must think about that!

James wrote:

[Regarding Enneads] Therese is trying to be a modern day gold panner, and seeing as she is from california, maybe she comes from a long line of gold diggers, lol... i await with my scales to measure the gold and pay in gratitude to anyone who finds any!!

James, take a closer look at the Enneads for Kamala Harris from the past and the one in process now. Also I will be posting the Ennead transit charts for two recent events: The moment when votes placed Kamala in the Democratic presidential nominee position and the moment when she accepted that nomination.

Of course, we shall see if Kamala Harris is the next president of the United States!

Therese wrote

The Ennead has nothing to do with Indian astrology and never existed in India. Bradley discovered the Ennead when he was investigating solar monthly charts (Sun every 30 degrees around the zodiac) and discovered that charts with the Sun in the trine position to natal Sun were statistically "surprisingly on the plus side."

Personally, I see no problem dividing the circle into Enneads.
All numbers are relevant in some way. I have seen Culpeper dividing the zodiac in 4 and 8 to find out if the disease was acute or chronic.
The idea behind numbers is to find out the meaning.
I remember seeing a painting of Seurat at the Tate Gallery and if looked at it from far and near, it looked completely different. Yet, it was the same painting.
I think that numbers and divisional views of the birth chart allow us to grasp meanings we would not be able to view otherwise.

Ouranos