It was my mistake in writing.
I was meaning classical astrologer and even Carter (not that Carter is a classical astrologer).

Sorry for the late reply, I was busy attending a seminar.
This is a link from CieloeTerra site:
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.epic ... cicli.html

Here in Italy, we declare too blindly that when a planet is conjunct ascendant, everything is subdued to that planet. And another thing we say here, is that when a planet conjuncts mc, is the same as conjuncting the ascendant: I don't think so.

here in Italy, where? Never heard before you mentioned.
Anyway a planet rising with the Ascendant is something one would notice, I believe.

Hi! I'm not sure if it's smart to reply to a thread that's so old, but I figured I'd give it a try to keep from cluttering up the forum board.

I read through this thread, as well as countless articles online, and I'm still feeling completely lost as to how to locate the Occidental in a natal chart - and am still a bit unsure of myself with the Oriental as well. I'm not sure if this is relevant information, but I am using the Whole Sign system.

It should be noted that I'm attempting to piece together not just my own natal chart, but also my partner's and my 3 children's. Because, go big or go home, I guess. (Really, trying to find the keys to healing our family, one member at a time. Lots of trauma to unpack and resolve.)

Anyway, I had read somewhere that, to find the Oriental, one just has to look at the natal chart and find the planet immediately clockwise the Sun. (i.e. if the Sun is in Cancer at 15°37'6" (3rd house), then Mercury in Cancer 9°19'41" (also in 3rd because, Whole Sign) would be the Oriental as it's the first planet to the left of the Sun. Is this correct? And if so, what happens in the scenario where there are two planets preceding the Sun (Venus [cazimi] and Mars both conjunct the Sun)? Would they both be considered Oriental? If, say, Mars wasn't conjunct the Sun but was still within 30°, would that be discounted? (I ask hypothetically in an attempt to address my confusion between these charts.)

As for the Occidental, I'm just completely lost. The first page of this thread had two charts used as examples, but it didn't seem to help me understand. (The one was noted as having Venus as the Occidental, but I fail to understand why Mercury wouldn't be.) I had previously concluded that the Occidental would be whichever planet was immediately counterclockwise the Sun, but that definitely doesn't seem to be the case. Is there any way to look at the natal chart and figure it out this way, or is a different method needed?

I'm not sure if you will be able to view these, but in case you'd like to see the charts for yourself:

Mine: https://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?gm= ... asp=1&rs=0
Partner: https://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;sd ... s=0;nhor=2
Kid 1: https://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;bt ... n=4;nhor=9
Kid 2: https://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;as ... g=e;nhor=8
Kid 3: https://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;mn ... 024;nhor=7

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you so much for your time!

Kat

hi kat

there are a few ways to think of occidental and oriental... essentially planets in the eastern part of the chart are rising - so oriental.. this would be any planet from the i.c. to the midheaven - all on the left side of a typical astrological chart with the midheaven axis dividing between east and west... occidental is everything in the west - from midheaven degree down to opp the midheaven - i.c. point...

but another way is to think of it from the point of view of the sun... so in your first example below - mercury rises ahead of the sun, so it is 'oriental'... same deal any planet ahead of the sun - any planet ''to the left'' or rising ahead of the sun is considered oriental... planets rising after the sun are considered occidental...

that is the simple breakdown.. perhaps someone else will chime in with a more sophisticated response to your question.. hopefully this helps.. cheers james

kmryan7002 wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 2:20 pm
Anyway, I had read somewhere that, to find the Oriental, one just has to look at the natal chart and find the planet immediately clockwise the Sun. (i.e. if the Sun is in Cancer at 15°37'6" (3rd house), then Mercury in Cancer 9°19'41" (also in 3rd because, Whole Sign) would be the Oriental as it's the first planet to the left of the Sun. Is this correct? And if so, what happens in the scenario where there are two planets preceding the Sun (Venus [cazimi] and Mars both conjunct the Sun)? Would they both be considered Oriental? If, say, Mars wasn't conjunct the Sun but was still within 30°, would that be discounted? (I ask hypothetically in an attempt to address my confusion between these charts.)

As for the Occidental, I'm just completely lost. The first page of this thread had two charts used as examples, but it didn't seem to help me understand. (The one was noted as having Venus as the Occidental, but I fail to understand why Mercury wouldn't be.) I had previously concluded that the Occidental would be whichever planet was immediately counterclockwise the Sun, but that definitely doesn't seem to be the case. Is there any way to look at the natal chart and figure it out this way, or is a different method needed?


Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you so much for your time!

Kat

Hi Kat, unfortunately I can't see the charts you linked to; however, I will take a crack at an explanation, pretty sure if I get it wrong others will pipe up

The texts describe two ways planets can be Oriental and Occidental relative to either the horizon or the Sun, you pretty much have to rely on the text context to try and work out which is being referred to.

The horizon orientation is the easiest to identify, if the planet is:

• between the MC/IC in the 10th, 11th, 12th, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd house is Eastern or Oriental
• between the MC/IC in the 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, or 5th house is Western or Occidental

For planets oriental or occidental of the Sun, the rules are different for the outer (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn) planets and the inner (Venus, Mercury) planets.

Outer Planets
First, imagine the Sun positioned on the Asc, any outer planet above the Sun by diurnal (clockwise) motion (ie in the 12th, 11th, 10th, 9th) is said to be oriental or dexter or to the right of the Sun and any below the Sun by diurnal motion (i.e. in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) are said to be occidental or sinister or to the left of the Sun.

Oriental planets are rising from the Sun when they are at least 15° from the Sun and are said to be in their own glow when between 15-60° from the Sun.
Occidental planets are setting into the Sun when they are 15-30° from the Sun.


Inner Planets
The inner planets are a little trickier as they never move too far from the Sun (this assumes I've understood Schmidt correctly):

• Eastern or Oriental and 'rising' from the Sun if Retrograde and moving towards their 2nd Station (from Retro to Direct)
• Western or Occidental or 'rising' from the Sun if direct in motion and moving towards their 1st Station (from Direct to Retro)

As a general rule, the outer, masculine planets are said to be more effective if they are Oriental of the Sun; Venus and the Moon are considered more effective if they are Occidental of the Sun. For Mercury, if he's oriental of the Sun he's considered diurnal, if occidental, he's considered nocturnal and chart sect tips the scales i.e. you want him oriental in a diurnal chart, occidental in a nocturnal chart.

Hope that is of some help
Jane

Thank you for taking the time to respond, James!

That actually did help me understand better. I had read that everything above the AC/DC axis was Oriental / diurnal and all below was nocturnal, (I don't recall any reference to the MC/IC axis), but when trying to calculate each planet's dignity, I got caught up on this issue. I was under the impression that only one planet could be considered Oriental / Occidental, as there is much talk about the "Oriental 'Guiding' Planet" (not planet(s)).

The following link is what I've based most of my "evaluation" on. In it, they assign points: +2 if Saturn, Mars, Jupiter, Mercury, or Venus is Oriental; -2 if Saturn, Mars or Jupiter is Occidental. They also say +2 if the Moon is Oriental or increasing in light, or -2 if it is decreasing in light - I assume this "increase/decrease in light" is in reference to whether or not the Moon is waxing or waning...?

https://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson7/

So, to make sure my bogged-down brain is comprehending this, you're saying that there is no "single" planet that qualifies - that this includes any planet within the (pardon my junk terminology) zone of Oriental / Occidental? Assuming I understand correctly, I would score each planet based on the paragraph above...?

No pressure for you specifically to respond, James, although it'll be appreciated if you choose to do so! Thank you again!

Hi Kat

I recently added an image to the Skyscript glossary definition of these terms - can you check what is explained here:

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/glossary/occidental/

I think the explanation offered there is as simple and informative as it can be. Let me know if there is still anything you don't understand about the definition and how it is used in a chart.

Ah, got it! Thank you all so, very much!

Just to complement on Oriental vs Occidental

Normally, we call 'oriental' or 'occidental', the slower planets (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn).
Matutine (oriental) or Vespertine (occidental) the faster planets (Mercury, Venus and the Moon)

Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos I,8
Of the Power of the Aspects to the Sun
"Now, mark you, likewise, according to their aspects to the sun, the moon and three of the planets experience increase and decrease in their own powers. For in its waxing from new moon to first quarter the moon is more productive of moisture; in its passage from first quarter to full, of heat; from full to last quarter; of dryness, and from last quarter to occultation, of cold.
The planets, in oriental aspects only, are more productive of moisture from rising to their first station, of heat from first station to evening rising, of dryness from evening rising to the second station, of cold from second station to setting; and it is clear that when they are associated with One another they produce very many variations of quality in our ambient, the proper force of each One for the most part persisting, but being changed in quantity by the force of the stars that share the configuration."

And here is what Danièle Jay says in L'Echo d'Hermès, #35, Jan 2012 - Google and free translation

"- If the Moon... moves towards Venus, Venus not being afflicted by the malefics, it grants esteem and favors... states Rhetorius (CCAG VIII/1, Brussels 1929).

- Olympiodorus says the same thing:
When the Moon, after the New Moon, the Full Moon or its other links (with the Sun), when it
breaks away from them and moves... towards the benefics, we mean Jupiter or Venus or Mercury, it becomes the cause of the greatest goods in the nativity...

- Speaking of the phases of the Moon (the New Moon, the heliacal rising, etc.), Rhetorius says again:
"It is appropriate to consider the lords and the places (which they occupy) from the Horoscope... If the phase is angular and its lord is observed by a beneficent star, those who are born are distinguished and illustrious" (CCAG VIII/4).

And she gives the example of Danielle Mitterand, spouse of ex- President of France François Mitterand was born with the Sun at 5Sco21 and the Moon at 16 Sco, just out of the rays of the Sun in her heliacal rising.
Personal note: Wikipedia
She created the France-Libertés Foundation in 1986, when she was First Lady, with the merger of three smaller associations which had been established in 1981.
In July 1992, on her way to Halabja in support of the Kurds, she was involved in a car bomb in Iraqi Kurdistan; though she survived, as did minister Bernard Kouchner, seven people in her convoy were killed, and seventeen others were wounded.
In 1996, Mitterrand was awarded the North–South Prize "for her position in favor of the human rights and, symbolically, to Algerian women, for their daily fight for freedom."

Besides the Moon in fall, cadent and ruled by Mars in the 6th, it had made its heliacal rising and was applying to Venus and that Mars, ruler of the Moon, receives the trine of Mercury."
Here is a woman whose conditional luminary (the Moon in the nocturnal chart) could have announced some weakness: it is in fall, in the cadent house (the III), in the service of a Mars also in the cadent house (the VI). However, what we know of the wife of the former President of the Republic does not correspond to this prognosis. Where did she draw her strength of soul, her intrepidity, her vigor as a fighter, her popularity, if not from this Moon in its light. Where did her high social elevation come from, if not from this Moon in heliacal rising, applying to Venus? "


So, when judging Oriental or Occidental, it is important to look at
1) Has the planet made its heliacal rising?
2) the next planet this planet applies to
3) in what phase of the cycle the planet is
Moisture from rising to their first station
Heat from first station to evening rising
Dryness from evening rising to the second station
Cold from second station to setting.
4) Finally the Sect (diurnal or nocturnal) which acts not on the power but the quality of the planet.

-------------------
Scholar articles

Susanne Denningmann
"The Ambiguous Terms"
https://www.cultureandcosmos.org/issues/vol11.php
-----------------
Matthew Robinson
"Ardua et Astra: On the Calculation of the Dates of the Rising and Setting of Stars"
https://www.academia.edu/3111986/Ardua_ ... g_of_Stars

Best to you,
Ouranos