Good day/night,

I hope everyone is enjoying their weekend.

I think I am posting in the right area, but do correct me if not please.

I am wondering about where others retrieve accurate birth times of countries. Finding birthdays of countries seems relatively easy (e.g., https://flagpedia.net/lists/formation) - birth times not so much.

Some countries, like the United States, appear to have a commonly accepted birth time, however where was this data extracted from? I am thinking it was extracted from official minutes during its formation, but could be wrong and would love to know where others get this kind of data from.

Thank you and have the best day.


Sincerely,

Yfke

nicholas campion has written books on this..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Campion

this book might be a good place to start -
Campion, Nicholas (2004). The Book of World Horoscopes. Wessex Astrologer.

Yfke wrote:

I think I am posting in the right area, but do correct me if not please.

You are indeed. A warm welcome to the Skyscript Mundane and Financial Astrology Forum.

Yfke wrote:

I am wondering about where others retrieve accurate birth times of countries. Finding birthdays of countries seems relatively easy (e.g., https://flagpedia.net/lists/formation) - birth times not so much.

The book reference James already helpfully provided to you: Nicholas Campion's book 'The Book of World Horoscopes'' is undoubtably the most comprehensive single book covering national charts. Its a very large tomb and quite expensive but well worth the investment.

Yfke wrote:

Some countries, like the United States, appear to have a commonly accepted birth time,

If only! Actually nothing could be further from the truth. There are multiple charts that have been proposed for the USA. For example, its been pointed out that that the American colonies had already taken votes to break with Great Britain on the 1st and 2nd of July 1776. In regards July 4th, when the text of the Declaration of Independence was agreed by the Continental Congress astrologers disagree on the correct rising sign. A variety have been proposed: Gemini, Virgo. Libra, Scorpio and Sagittarius. The latter coincides with the popular Sibly chart but the historical evidence is weak for that timing.

However, its needs to be noted that the former 13 colonies were still 13 separate states on July 4th 1776 co-operating together through the Continental Congress. . There was as yet no unitary state in 1776. The first attempt at a unitary government did not not take place until the so called Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union which brought together the 13 states of the United States in 1781. Some astrologers have favoured a chart for this development. However, The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union was a very decentralised model of government which many Americans were dissatisfied with. This led to moves towards a more centralised or federal form of government. This eventually resulted in creation of the US constitution which set out the distinctive institutions of modern American government we recognise today such as the House of Representatives, Senate, Supreme Court and Presidency. Some astrologers have favoured the date for when the constitution was first signed in 1787, others on the date it was ratified by enough states in 1788 while others give focus to the date the constitution took legal effect on March 4th 1789. I am personally, a proponent of the later date.

To be honest I have only scraped the surface of what is an enormous topic but I hope I have given you a taste of how complex this topic can be in regards the USA.

I accept the USA is an extreme example as no country has led to as much astrological debate and disagreement over its foundation date. However, it remains true that well established countries of several centuries usually have several potential national charts. This is why I and most specialists in mundane astrology dont agree that countries should be treated like nativities with a single ''birth moment''. The most straighforward cases are newer countries like for example South Sudan where the foundation date and time is clearly established. However, a fundamental change of government may require a fresh chart. For example, look at the Taliban taking control in Afghanistan or the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Mark

james_m wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 10:14 pm nicholas campion has written books on this..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Campion

this book might be a good place to start -
Campion, Nicholas (2004). The Book of World Horoscopes. Wessex Astrologer.

Hi james_m,

Thank you for this recommendation. I will have to get a copy!


Cheers,

Yfke

Mark wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:54 am You are indeed. A warm welcome to the Skyscript Mundane and Financial Astrology Forum.

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the warm welcome. It is a pleasure to be here.

Mark wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:54 am The book reference James already helpfully provided to you: Nicholas Campion's book 'The Book of World Horoscopes'' is undoubtably the most comprehensive single book covering national charts. Its a very large tomb and quite expensive but well worth the investment.

A very big tomb of national charts - sold.

Mark wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:54 am . . . the former 13 colonies were still 13 separate states on July 4th 1776 co-operating together through the Continental Congress. . There was as yet no unitary state in 1776. The first attempt at a unitary government did not not take place until the so called Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union which brought together the 13 states of the United States in 1781. Some astrologers have favoured a chart for this development. However, The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union was a very decentralised model of government which many Americans were dissatisfied with. This led to moves towards a more centralised or federal form of government. This eventually resulted in creation of the US constitution which set out the distinctive institutions of modern American government we recognise today such as the House of Representatives, Senate, Supreme Court and Presidency. Some astrologers have favoured the date for when the constitution was first signed in 1787, others on the date it was ratified by enough states in 1788 while others give focus to the date the constitution took legal effect on March 4th 1789. I am personally, a proponent of the later date.

Thank you for your insight. I'm not well-versed in American history, so I'm glad I used the United States as an example.

I'm still at the tip of the iceberg with Mundane Astrology, but I wonder if the initial date of formation of a country is like a parent who passes its traits (laws, regulations, structure, culture, etc.) onto its descendants (the next leaders of the country). These traits change throughout time, but usually over the long term.

Thank you again.


Have a great day/night,

Yfke