Trying to figure out what, in the charts, might depict the decisive win for Trump. At the moment, the USA Today live results page is showing him likely to win 295 electoral college seats with 72.7 million votes to Harris' 68 million. They also show him as likely to take all 7 battleground states.

On review, my best guess is that enough attention wasn't paid to the following Solar Return placements in the radix:

• SR Moon (general public) in radix 1st sextile SR Asc in radix 11th (support)
• SR Moon's dispositor Mercury in domicile in the radix 10th. It's within 1° of the Sun so technically combust; however, a number of the texts say a planet in domicile or exaltation conjunct the Sun is protected from combustion.

Mercury rules his 11th and 2nd, both houses are related to how much 'support' a person receives.

In hindsight, it may be that the radix positioning of SR planets could carry more weight than radix planet positions in the Solar Return chart.

hi jane

this is an ongoing topic that therese hamilton and i have discussed in the past... what is the best way to look at solar returns?? with the solar return on the inside and the natal on the outside, or the natal on the inside with the solar return on the outside??

but an even bigger issue for therese and i is the use of which zodiac?? lol.... so here is the sidereal and tropical solar returns for 2024... without knowing which one is which - which chart do you think is stronger?

Hi James,

The Solar Return chart it is intimately connected to the radix chart which is the sole basis for timing an SR; so I don't believe judging it as a stand alone chart has much, if any, value.

I know you, Therese, and a plethora of others use the sidereal zodiac but to me the zodiac is simply the Earth's orbit around the Sun marked out in 30° segments that are measured each year from the point at which the Sun appears to move from 0 S declination to 0 N declination. They are essentially sections of space the Earth moves through in her yearly motion and provide a convenient way of locating where we are in that orbit and mapping out what we observe in the sky at various points in that journey.

As I understand it, the sidereal zodiac begins with 0° of the constellation Aries but no one knows where that is, hence the numerous Ayanamsa values. The fact that the stars make a slow passage of their own and so, today, are seen by us to occupy different sections of the sky than they did 2000 years ago is natural since the Sun, along with our entire solar system, is orbiting the centre of the galaxy; everything is in motion. Hence, the efforts to find the zero degree of the constellation Aries and forcibly align it with the 1st 30° of space we move through each year strikes me as a misguided effort to 'fix' the stars in place when they are not, and never have been, 'fixed'.

Essentially, I think a sidereal system is not based on the Earth/Sun relationship of the tropical zodiac but something else entirely; possibly Sun/Galaxy. I don't know, and I'm not saying that such a system has no value; all I can say is that I have enough trouble trying to study and understand the astrology based on the tropical zodiac and no longer have either the time or inclination to experiment with other systems i.e. it's not a headache I want deal with...lol

hi jane

thanks for your response... i do believe in the value of both systems, but i won't go into it here.. both of their basis is on concrete differences that can be quickly summarized as follows... tropical - sun- earth relationship.. sidereal - sun to other stars relationship based on the path of the ecliptic which is the sun- earth relationship again.. well, hopefully that doesn't confuse others...

but back to the topic you've raised which as i said - therese and i have discussed before... how do you prioritize the solar return chart? do you look at the placements of the solar return inside the root chart, or do you consider the reverse - ie - where the root chart positions land in the solar return chart?? like i said - it is an ongoing topic of interest to me and although i have typically put the solar return planets inside the root chart, there is a different school that does the opposite..

Hi James

What I’ve been looking for, primarily, is reinforcement. So if the ruler of the radix ASC is in the same house in the SR that it holds in the radix, its radix promise is strengthened or if the SR ASC ruler has the same aspect in the SR that it holds in the radix or if it rules the same house it rules in the radix then again, radix promise is reinforced and so on for the planets managing the year, the divisor and sharer, and the Lord of the Year (ruler of profected 1st).

So I think you have to check things both ways, it’s not strictly one or the other with the exception that the SR cannot produce or nullify anything that is not promised in the radix or if it seems to, it won’t last long. at least, thanks how I understand it should work; I haven’t been working with SR’s long enough to come to a definite conclusion.

For those interested, Martin Gansten has a good appreciation of the SR in his book 'Annual Predictive Techniques', chapter 8.
Finding the chronocators first and confirming with the SR.
On page 139...
"My own view, based on experience, is that the rising sign of the revolution, its ruler and occupants do not qualify as chronocators in their own right, but can reinforce themes already indicated by the chronocators."
In short, there must be a period (mine here:
direction, profection, transit, planetary period, divisor) that needs to be present and indicated in the natal... and reinforced in the SR.
It cannot be viewed as a standalone chart.
It is rooted in the natal.
Ouranos

jane

yes to all you say about reinforcement, although different astrologers go about this differently and yes to ouranos about emphasizing the root - that goes without saying, but maybe it's useful to say it again...

i got a lot out of ben dykes book on solar revolutions - persian nativities 111 which was his first translation of abu mashars book... i haven't finished reading his more recent version in arabic which i know we were both reading more then 1/2 a year ago.. what did i learn and retain?? i retained the importance of the profection year ruler and where it is placed in the natal and solar return.. i might have learned some other things too, but that was possibly the most memorable... i also absorbed a lot from charaks books on solar returns - a textbook on varshaphala and predictive techniques in varshaphala - varshaphala being solar returns.. my own individual approach is not the standard one that i read about, but the importance of the location of the profection lord in the natal chart is an important part of it... i guess we all have to find what we think works best for us, or follow a standard methodology we have learned from others..

because i don't use the bounds, bound lords and etc. etc. - the movement of these rulers via directions is not a part of my vocabulatory....

ouranos

yes, martins book you mention has some worthwhile information that he has accumulated... you might have missed it, but a few of us were involved in a fairly long conversation with martin after the publication of his book.. it was discussed at length here at skyscript when he book came out - maybe 3 or 4 years ago as memory serves..

James,

It is true that of all the techniques sometimes one or two can be enough to have an idea of what the year will look like.
One of my first influence in astrology used profections and transits almost exclusively with amazing results.
With the exception that he was using the whole chart (Placidus) not just the ASC. Let's say you have the natal ruler of the ASC positioned in profected 8th and being challenged by hard aspects, it becomes a major theme for the year.
I have a lifetime diagram of my own chart like this.
Valens has some chapters on this.
Another tool I use for the progressed ASC is the midpoints. You can look at the sign and bound but the midpoints add to the story. For the progressed ASC reaching JU in the midpoint MA/SA (growth tied to death or accidents) will be different than if it falls in a MO/VE midpoint (growth from supporting love, beauty at home).

Best,
Ouranos

thanks ouranos

you and i see the importance of midpoints, outside the domain of the trad astrologers who use something they have no real understanding as for its basis - bounds or terms... the relevance and meaning of this aspect of traditional astrology is lost in time.. and here is another observation ( in spite of the bound rulers being completely different)... whether you are into trad tropical or trad sidereal - they use these bounds and claim to get results off them... i call b.s. myself, but hey i am a shit disturber and easily dismissed, lol...

midpoints on the other hand i am totally down with as the basis for them is clear and on point.. but, wink wink - you are not allowed to use them if you are a traditionalist!!

Hi James,

because i don't use the bounds, bound lords and etc. etc. - the movement of these rulers via directions is not a part of my vocabulatory....

I actually tried them in the early 2000's and gave up on them; recently took another look at directing them using each term's individual OA rather than the average measure of an OA degree in its sign and so far have been finding them useful. In fact, I've just started a project, using 14 charts from Planetary Powers: The Morin Method by Patti Tobin Brittain to test Determinations, Realization, & Timing Methods where I want to apply basic determination methods (traditional and Morin's) for particular houses in each chart, try to work out what the determinations promise and, if they are realized, check the Distribution thru the Terms, Directed planets (by OA), Profections, and Solar Returns. Bascially, want to see if, when expected events are realized in the life, whether the planets determined to the event are the one's actually managing the period when the event occurs. So far I've worked most of my experiments (Worsdale charts, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth and others over the years) in reverse, from the event back to the radix, and I've found the degree-to-degree directions of planets and lots activated to be mainly in line with events; want to see if working from the radix to the event will show as many connections.

As to the idea that since no one knows the origin of the bounds/terms they should be tossed out; I'd rather assume my understanding is at fault and work to improve it than to just chuck out something that has survived in the literature for over 2000 years. As Sly & the Family Stone once sang "Different strokes for different folks"

Jane,
Let's say that for bounds... It's a family affair!

Ouranos

i love that song, so i have to share it, as i am listening to it now - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xag5RKD0VHk

jane,

people use ouija boards, psychics, and all sorts of means of getting at a better understanding of something... horary astrology is a bit like this to me, but i don't discount any of it, even if i don't understand the basis for it.. so if someone tells me they use bounds or terms and get results - it could be! not knowing the basis for it seems good enough for the other means mentioned in my first sentence, so who am i to challenge any of it??

i think it breaks down for me with the idea that astrology has some sort of scientific side to it... if one can't explain or understand the arbitrary rational for the terms/bounds - and remember you have a few varieties to choose from like pepsi or coke - that is where it gets outside of something that i connect with astrology, even if it is from the deep past of 'astrology'... so - all the power to you if you get something from it... i revert to the idea that elements of astrology are much more subjective then other parts and this would be one of them.. cheers james