Hi everyone,

In Johannes Schoener's table of dignity and debility one of the conditions he uses is "Rising to the north by latitude" and "descending to the south by latitude"
Can be found in the following link (3d condition from the bottom):
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/schoener_dignity_scores.pdf

This is also noted in Deb Houlding's article on Antiscia:

In traditional astrology, conjunction by celestial latitude (which occurs when two planets are in the same hemisphere and equally placed north or south of the ecliptic) is important; but it was not part of the antiscia technique and should not be confused with the modem 'parallels of declination' which are measured instead from the equator. To ancient astrologers the direction and latitude of a planet were very significant, used to reveal much about a planet's power and fortitude. The best planetary position is to be in the northern hemisphere, rising in latitude; the worst in the south, descending. This consideration is especially relevant to the Moon, who is most fortuitous when northern, rising, and at the same time increasing in light.

Here's a link to the article:
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html

This seems rather weird to me, as celestial latitude measure the north/south tilt relative to the ecliptic, while declination measures the north/south tilt relative to the equator.
Shouldn't it be that when a planet rises in declination (not latitude), then it would be more strong, and when it descends in declination (not latitude) then the planet would be weaker?
That is, that a planet which passes 0-Capricorn and moves towards 0-Cancer would increase in declination and strength, and the opposite also being the case for the journey from 0-Can to 0-Cap.
As celestial latitude of a planet is determined relative to that planet's planetary nodes, I don't see how come increasing/decreasing in celestial latitude is relevant.

hi dima

thanks for drawing attention to this and asking good questions! it reminded me of the north and south node topic from the past few weeks - north node - good, and south node bad kind of idea - which again, i am not convinced of this... i know this isn't the same, but i see a ''parallel'' lol... not a contra-parallel, but a parallel...

To me this sounds not strange but quite reasonable: The Sun is the source of all power and light (disregarding the fixed stars) and its path is a path of power. Therefor all is related to the ecliptic. On the other hand considering this one may ask why 0° latitude is not seen as the place of greatest power.

But I think that observation and experience came before theory for hundreds of years.

Dima,

Strong or weak, good or bad should be banished of our astrological language. Saying that signs from Cancer to Capricorn are good because they have a North declination is not helping here.
North and South represent 2 directions needed in our world.
When you think of South, it is the liberation of a seed or of something that is no longer needed for our evolution. North refers to a potential to receive new energies that can feed our growth. Is one better than the other? It depends on your destiny.

If you keep eating without evacuating you will run into trouble. One is more pleasurable but both are essential to survival.

Let's take the Moon for example.
North or South shows our adaptation to the world.
Many public figures have a Moon with a Latitude North, while the Moon with a Latitude South seems to predominate for thinkers and spiritual people. The former is oriented to the material world, the latter to the spiritual world.

Think of the Moon 'at the bendings' when it reaches its maximum latitude North or South, in square to the Nodes.
The response to life circumstances is the least adapted to reality. In other words, the most subjective. The change of direction is saying that we are about to change our point of view.

Examples:
John Lennon who once said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus Christ (maximum North) ended up cooking bread at home (back to South and reality).
Rudolf Steiner (maximum South) believed that in ancient times, human beings participated to the spiritual processes of the world. He understood naturally in South latitude the limitations of a material world and as he turned North, he developed a spiritual vision. He also brought from South his knowledge of the bodies of human beings (physical, astral, etheric and the I).
The cycle North to South or South to North can be broken down in 8 phases.
If you have a chance to read 'Les multiples visages de la Lune' by Alexander Ruperti and Marief Cavaignac, it is well explained. I know it has also been translated in Spanish 'Las multiples caras de la Luna.'

Cheers,
Ouranos

James and Georgius:
Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
Nice pun, James.

Ouranos:

Saying that signs from Cancer to Capricorn are good because they have a North declination is not helping here.

This isn't exactly the case as signs from 0 Aries to 0 Libra have north declination.
--
In general I agree, but it wasn't the thing I was after.
Just trying to understand Schoener's logic in his table of dignity; the principle behind that clause.

You got me thinking though.
Maybe the intention is to check the planet in contrast to the Moon's node (the Moon's latitude) and score it thus.
+2 if it's after the NN and before the SN, or the reverse.

You are right Dima on the Signs North.

North is spirit and time, South is matter and space.
My Sun is conjunct the South Node and on my first Nodal return I had an out-of-the body experience related to space, my physical body and space around me. I felt infinitesimal and boundless. Which are the. 2 poles and I remember asking myself 'Which one feels more comfortable?' And both were equal, the same. On one side, I felt complete (North), on the other (South), I felt as pertaining to something larger than me. But I felt the need to stay on Earth and I came back.
According to Schoener and many traditional astrologers, it would be weak and bad. I felt none of that.
In the following months, I traveled South (result or consequence?) and found out that time (day and night, conscious and unconscious) was a mental construction. Reality was that it was the same thread with no judgement value. There is no cesure in the snake who eats his tail and they meet at the same place. Light and dark, North and South co-exist to raise up our consciousness

"The beings responsible for the rotation of the earth (i. e. from east to west), dependent on man's willing; the beings responsible for the waxing and waning of the moon, dependent on man's feeling; and the beings responsible for summer and winter (the sun's apparent movement between north and south), dependent for their redemption on man's mode of thinking."
(12 April 1909  SpiritualHierarchies, Rudolf Steiner)